Backorders become Auctions at WHC (beta) (6.Viewing)

FM said:

A fix is in the works and should be live this week.

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Tuesday and it's still sorting based on active bids, and I can guarantee this is keeping some people (myself included) from creating preorders.

DomainRecap said:

Tuesday and it's still sorting based on active bids, and I can guarantee this is keeping some people (myself included) from creating preorders.

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We're delighted to announce that the problem has now been solved. Please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any further comments.

MarineN said:

We're delighted to announce that the problem has now been solved. Please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any further comments.

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Thank you for the update.

And it does seem to be working now and properly displaying the Hot Picks on top.

BTW, @MarineN I reported this error long ago but I am still getting a "Server Error" when trying to place a TBR preorder when I have not been logged in and then use the provided Email and Password fields that pop up.

From: .CA Domain Auctions | Web Hosting Canada

1) Bid Now
2) Continue
3) Sign in with my credentials
4)

I always have to be signed in prior to loading the TBR page or it continually gives me a red "Server Error" when trying to log in from there.

MarineN said:

We're delighted to announce that the problem has now been solved. Please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any further comments.

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Pardon me for being the odd person out here.

I see it's sorting alphabetical now for hotlist and there is the #of bids field.

I fail to see why leaving out the number of bids would be beneficial. When I look at the hotlist I also look at the number of bids. The more bids the more scrutiny I give the domain and the more likely I may bid.

Also: When there are 1000+ domains I don't think everyone will scan the whole list.
Leaving out the number of pre bids on the backorder page is a mistake in my opinion.

So I am on the exact opposite end of the spectrum from DomainRecap. In his scenario it benefits domainers that want to keep a few domains under the radar. In my scenario it benefits the bidders that do not go through the entire list but want to see all the action as it's happening.

Both have merit but if I was going to make a prediction I would say eventually pre auctions will show the number of pre bids because it will bring more bidders to the table. I know I am right on this because the late drops that don't make the hotlist will be easily overlooked by the casual visitors that don't scan the whole list.


I'm not bringing this up to be argumentative and quite honestly I go with whatever happens but as in any forum I thought it was important to state the other side of the coin.

Is there any tutorial on how this new system works?

I don't see any link to "Add New Order" from the Domain Auctions section, but when I do manually load the WHC TBR Page, any new order I place sends me right back to the Domain Auctions page... which I can't seem to get out of and find a link to go back and to look at the TBR list or place new orders.

This is all I see when I am in Domain Auctions:

MapleDots said:

I fail to see why leaving out the number of bids would be beneficial.

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Because WHC is switching to a "Open Auction" system similar to what CatchDrop uses so there needs to be some level of privacy, otherwise why would anyone even use the system? It's already heavily stacked against you with universal open auctions, and CatchDrop doesn't post the number of bids per domain either.

Even CD realizes that by initiating anti-consumer policies like open auctions on everything, they can't go too far and also publish all customer bidding data in a public format. You'd have to be a fool or a masochist to bid on a platform (other than at the last-minute) with open auctions + public customer bidding data. What would be the next update, monthly subscription fees?

Also, WHC and CD are not "research tools" for you to use their bidding data to place orders at competitors and that's often what happened with the WHC "TBR Bid List". People saw what was hot at WHC and then went and placed competing bids at MyID, BM, CD, etc. - I saw this happen myself in real-time, but now that data is private and WHC may win more domains.

And look at it in a different way - WHC is doing this to enhance the auction prices of their premium domains - that's the crux of it, and this is self-evident. Everyone knows a premium when it hits the list and these never ever "sneak through" in today's market.

So don't worry, every single premium domain that WHC wins (and a lot of non-premium ones) will be available for you to bid on and that's what they are trying to accomplish.

DomainRecap said:

Because WHC is switching to a "Open Auction" system similar to what CatchDrop uses so there needs to be some level of privacy, otherwise why would anyone even use the system? It's already heavily stacked against you with universal open auctions, and CatchDrop doesn't post the number of bids per domain either.

Even CD realizes that by initiating anti-consumer policies like open auctions on everything, they can't go too far and also publish all customer bidding data in a public format.

You'd have to be a fool or a masochist to bid on a platform (other than at the last-minute) with open auctions + public customer bidding data. What would be the next update, monthly subscription fees?

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The number of bids gives away no personal information, it does not say who bid, it simply shows what the most popular domain is. Again, it's my opinion and something I would like to see but I go with the flow, I can go either way.

The point is that why would WHC provide private bidding data when ALL of their auctions are now public?

Think about it. Who gets value from posting a domain with 10 bids for everyone to see - not WHC as they already know about it and it doesn't matter if a domain gets 2 bids or 200 - they all go to auction for everyone to see and bid on.

Get it? Under the new system they don't care if you or I bid on a domain that already has 2 or more bids. It means nothing.

Prior to this, WHC wanted to increase the number of bids because only those who bid on a domain could take part in the auction, but that's no longer the fact - every auction goes public now. Again, 2 bids or 2 million bids is all the same to WHC, as both will be at public auction for everyone to bid on.

But by keeping bid data private, WHC doesn't have to worry about people stealing their valuable data and using that to place competing bids at MyID, BM or CD. WHC gets to keep it all private and potentially win more semi-premiums that had an unexpectedly high bidder turnout.

Data is valuable and now that every auction goes public, it actually pays to keep it private.

P.S. this facet of the new system is actually bad for people like RLM, Eby and myself when bidding on 'sneaky good domains", as without the bid counter we won't know what to do to make last-minute corrections. We'll all be hoping that we're the lone bidder and then WHC will win it, toss it up on open auction, and then laugh all the way to bank.

Again, I am assuming other TBR providers know what they are doing, it's highly unlikely they will base their decision off the list from WHC.

We will differ in our opinions on this situation, but I have a feeling that eventually the # of bids will be shown. As TBR goes mainstream it will be about getting more exposure, more bids, more participation. Adding activity statistics will bring more people to the table.

I am all for privacy on a personal level but I consider this to be pretty basic and no reason it cannot be public.

Again each TBR provider will decide for themselves but they will also keep an eye on competitors. If one shows an advantage by providing more data it will quickly spread to others.

MapleDots said:

Again, I am assuming other TBR providers know what they are doing, it's highly unlikely they will base their decision off the list from WHC.

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Read what I wrote - it's CUSTOMERS like you and me and Bobby McGee who use this data to place competing pre-orders at other registrars.

Or are you saying that other registrars place orders for themselves, which is against TBR rules?

Just really think about what I wrote for a second - what benefit does WHC gain by posting a list of domains with 2-30+ bids on them for the world to see?

None. They already have that data and all auctions are open to everyone.

And that is 100% fact. You just need to think about it from WHC's point of view, not yours.

DomainRecap said:

Read what I wrote - it's CUSTOMERS like you and me and Bobby McGee who use this data to place competing pre-orders at other registrars.

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Again, I don't see a problem with this, registrars will win or not, a prudent domainer places the pre bids at numerous carriers anyways.

We have different opinions on the matter and I don't think we will change each others mind. I don't want to hog the topic so I will bow out now, but I am for showing the number of bids. I will miss not being able to see that, it did influence my decisions previously. It made me look twice at a domain in case I was missing something.

MapleDots said:

We have different opinions on the matter and I don't think we will change each others mind.

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There is no opinion or debate here, only fact.

WHC has absolutely no reason to, and receives absolutely no benefit by, posting Number of Bids data - conversely, they take a competitive risk by publishing it. That's 100% indisputable, incontrovertible stone cold fact now that all auctions are public.

The only reason they used to post the Number of Bids was to attract additional bidders because only those bidding got to take part in auctions, but those days are long gone. Now everyone can bid on everything.

I know what's happening here, and you're looking at the situation from your point of view and what you've lost, but truthfully WHC is a business and they don't give a crap. From their POV, under the "open auction" system, that bidding data is valuable, proprietary information that no longer has a business need to be published for all the world to see.

MapleDots said:

but I am for showing the number of bids. I will miss not being able to see that, it did influence my decisions previously. It made me look twice at a domain in case I was missing something.

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I think it's pretty clear what @DomainRecap is saying. My very thorough research is being used against me when its published by WHC. The same is true for others (like @DomainRecap).

This is exactly why I had pretty much quit putting in my lower level bids in at WHC any more. Even if I'm willing to pay $20 for them, I'm not willing to have my research published for everyone else to see and bid on. I've found that each week I can buy outright half a dozen domains that slip through the cracks through other registrars. However, had I placed those bids at WHC, everyone else (like you) would sort them to the top, say "hey, that's worth a bid" and next thing you know I'm having to spend $60 to $200 to get the domain. So when I quit placing those bids with WHC and instead place them with other less popular and less revealing TBR registrars, then I win these same type of domains straight up, no auction, minimum bid or near min-bid. Sure, I don't win them all, but I never do anyways. But I'm paying much less to get the ones I do get now.

rlm said:

I think it's pretty clear what @DomainRecap is saying. My very thorough research is being used against me when its published by WHC. The same is true for others (like @DomainRecap).

This is exactly why I had pretty much quit putting in my lower level bids in at WHC any more. Even if I'm willing to pay $20 for them, I'm not willing to have my research published for everyone else to see and bid on. I've found that each week I can buy outright half a dozen domains that slip through the cracks through other registrars. However, had I placed those bids at WHC, everyone else (like you) would sort them to the top, say "hey, that's worth a bid" and next thing you know I'm having to spend $60 to $200 to get the domain. So when I quit placing those bids with WHC and instead place them with other less popular and less revealing TBR registrars, then I win these same type of domains straight up, no auction, minimum bid or near min-bid. Sure, I don't win them all, but I never do anyways. But I'm paying much less to get the ones I do get now.

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Yup I get it exactly but eventually it will be the public against the domainers

Eventually each TBR carrier will have to decide who places more bids, the public or the domainers and they will decide what to show.

I don't count myself in the domainer field because I don't dig deep into the list, I basically look at the LONGER hotpicks list or the Diamonds list to decide. That said though, when I decide I want a domain I can go after it pretty aggressively and any late drops not making the hotlist will not be seen by me. That happened a number of times and I always thought too bad, I would have paid more for the domain.

So eventually if Joe public starts to get heavily involved and the number of public and casual domainers (like me) outnumber the domainers in TBR then the displaying the bids will come up for review.

Again, I am not trying to argue but on an open system the TBR provider will eventually cater to the biggest group. Today it's the hard core domainers, tomorrow it may be the public and the more casual domainers.

I see both sides but as a casual participant in TBR I will probably always rely on the data provided to me to decide what to order. I am usually not interested in what slips by the cracks, at this point I am only participating in the higher end auctions. I am as happy to lose as I am to win because that is what keeps me on budget.

So using rlm and domainrecap as a measure the carrier has to cater to you to make money. Those lower priced domains certainly add up and does generate income for the registrar.

That said when the single domain bids start to outshine the whole of the smaller ones it might be a different story once again.

All I know is it will be interesting to see how it evolves and if we gained nothing out of this it is at least two completely different point of views.

rlm said:

I think it's pretty clear what @DomainRecap is saying. My very thorough research is being used against me when its published by WHC.

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But RLM the actual reason that both WHC and CD are not displaying Number of Bidders is because there is no financial benefit to doing so.

I came upon this realization when I noticed that WHC was still sorting by Bid. I thought, "Well at least they're not displaying the Number of Bids".... then I realized that under the new "public auction" system, the number of bids is inconsequential since 2 bids is the same at 200 bids as everything goes to public auction for everyone in the world to bid on.

Previously, WHC encouraged additional bids because the auctions were limited to only those who bid, so the more pre-order bidders and potentially higher auction price you achieve. But that's no longer the case and anyone can take part in WHC's new public auctions. So WHC doesn't care if a domain has 10 bids or 10 thousand - it doesn't matter in the least.

Displaying the Number of Bids under the new system also comes with a risk that this valuable data will be used to determine which domains to bid on at competitors with zero benefit to WHC. Frank says there's "little risk" to showing the Number of Bids, but there's absolutely zero risk by not displaying it at all.

Then it became clear that while the Number of Bids is inconsequential under the new WHC, know which domains had bids and which did not is extremely valuable information, as with a "2 bids and it goes public" rule, with that info, you might be able to grab a pile of nice $18 domains.

That's why I notified Frank that the system was sorting by "Domains with Bids" as that one is a killer.

This helped clear up my initial misconception that WHC and CD were no longer displaying the Bid Numbers out of some altruistic pro-consumer slant, when in reality they are just protecting their valuable proprietary bid data.

I hope that makes a little sense.

MapleDots said:

Yup I get it exactly but eventually it will be the public against the domainers

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That is not what I'm saying.

You just have to sit down and think about it.

What's the difference between 10 and 10 thousands bids under the old WHC auction system and the new WHC public auction system?

Under the old, it meant more bidders, potentially higher auction prices and more profit, while under the new, there is absolutely no difference because all auctions have potentially infinite bidders no matter how many people pre-ordered it.

If you can grasp that, you'll understand the concept I'm trying to outline.

DomainRecap said:

But RLM the actual reason that both WHC and CD are not displaying Number of Bidders is because there is no financial benefit to doing so.

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Yes, the number of bidders doesn't really matter much. But the ability to sort listings by bid count is still significant. It means that users can sort and look through a pre-screened list of 100 domains instead of 10,000 domains. So that's the problem I have, and there is financial incentive for WHC to allow that sorting - as it attracts more bidders. No system is perfect for us though. But some are better than others.

I kind of agree that the number of bids is pretty irrelevant. At the end of the day it will be a public auction and if a domain is getting bid up by thousands that could mean already that there were many bidders to begin with. Knowing that there are hundreds of bidders really doesn’t mean much as it doesn’t mean it’s going to hit $10,000 just that people are watching and really there is no need for people to watch now. No point to even bid unless you think you are the only one and will snag the domain for $18.

I think this change is really only helping those who want to bid in privacy but again if they are sorting by names that got bids I don’t see the purpose. Again I haven’t looked much into it to see what WHC is actually doing.

I just want to add one more thing

Hot domains are based on one persons opinion, that person is well versed in domains but I have seen a few (not late) domains that did not show up on hotpicks. IE Twitter.ca and it fetched one of the higher values.

So what really makes a domain hot?

I would venture a guess that more bids would be the number one thing to look at.

Just saying....