# CIRA AGM proposals re: Warehousing, registrars, domain investing etc.



## FM__ (Aug 25, 2021)

I strongly suggest that everyone here who works with .CA domains becomes a member of CIRA before the election cut-off

In addition, you should read the member proposals by Alex Beraskow, as many of them touch on domaining, domain investing, the CDRP and registrars - topics that have been discussed here before:

https://member.cira.ca/Events/Canad.../CanadiansConnected/Member_Proposal_Text.aspx

I'll just quote the text here for archival purposes. I've tried to sort it by motion and supporting statement to make it a bit easier to digest.



> *Supporting Statement for Proposal #1*
> 
> CIRA was given the right to manage the “.ca” domain space 22 years ago by the federal government of Canada – specifically Industry Canada then (Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada now) – in a letter written by Dr. Michael Binder, Assistant Deputy Minister. That recognised that CIRA is the administrator of the “.ca” domain space.
> That letter – commonly referred to as the “Binder” letter – had conditions: CIRA was to conduct its activities in an open and transparent manner that ensured wide public access to all relevant information, following fair and sound business practices.
> ...


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## FM__ (Aug 26, 2021)

I know this is a tough and time intense topic, but it has the potential to impact more than registrars, would love to hear your opinions.


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## MapleDots__ (Aug 26, 2021)

FM said:
			
		

> Add section 2.06
> 2.06 As a Not For Profit corporation, CIRA must manage the .CA domain space as a key public resource on behalf of Canadians. CIRA must manage CIRA's activities in an open and transparent manner that ensures wide public access to all relevant information following fair and sound business practices.



With the millions they are giving away for free internet they are obviously running a surplus profit on the back of registrants. Nowhere in their mandate does it say use profits for OTHER purposes. If the profits exceed what CIRA requires to run the registry then obviously the prices are too high and the profits should go back to the registrants.

This whole thing is backwards, how can a non profit have so much profit? It's almost like another tax on top of the sales tax that everyone pays to register their domain. *Why the heck was there a dollar price increase?*


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## Develop__ (Aug 26, 2021)

FM said:
			
		

> *Supporting Statement for proposal #8*
> 
> Some registrars may own more than a 1,000 “.ca” domain names for resale and profit.
> Some “.ca” domain names resell for thousands of dollars.
> ...




All these proposals are for the CIRA board. I am actually quite surprised that a few of these proposals were not in place from the begininng. I would fully support them all.

As for proposal #8, it seems the board is aware that registrars are warehousing domains (some 1000+!) but their only concern is  when a registrar owned domain goes to CIRA dispute, they want to insure that no registrar relationship exists in the CIRA Dispute process. 


Edit: Fixed Quote & Response


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## FM__ (Aug 26, 2021)

Good feedback so far, thank you.



			
				Develop said:
			
		

> All these proposals are for the CIRA board. I am actually quite surprised that a few of these proposals were not in place from the begininng. I would fully support them all.



Actually, some registries (i.e. .DE) are entirely owned and ran by registrars. and I personally think some registrar representation and knowledge can be very useful to the board. Considering how some of these proposals show a lack of industry knowledge, it shows that this type of knowledge is also useful to the board.

There is an existing conflict of interest policy (https://www.cira.ca/policy/governan...conflicts-interest-and-financial-associations) that should really cover this already. Also, candidates have to declare if they or one of their friends/associates owns more than 50 domains, if I recall correctly.


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## theinvestor__ (Aug 26, 2021)

Don’t be fooled. CIRA is all about making profit and who knows where it is actually being spent.  Why would they ever need to raise prices? That was my biggest issue with them when I ran a registrar. They went from $8.50 to $9.50 for what? With over 3,000,000 .CA’s registered that’s nearly $30,000,000 annually. Where is this money going?


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## MapleDots__ (Aug 26, 2021)

OMG, that's right, very little cost to run and 30 million annually

OMG what are they doing with all the cash?


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## Develop__ (Aug 26, 2021)

Motion #5 should be:

Maximum of 2 consecutive terms.

This is the only way to change the direction of a board that has lost support of its members.

This would insure a new president/direction every 6 years.


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## MaiTaiMan__ (Aug 26, 2021)

FM said:
			
		

> I strongly suggest that everyone here who works with .CA domains becomes a member of CIRA before the election cut-off



+1 to this. Every single vote counts, so please make sure you vote.


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## theinvestor__ (Aug 26, 2021)

MaiTaiMan said:
			
		

> +1 to this. Every single vote counts, so please make sure you vote.



This is very true. I used to encourage members of my forum to become a CIRA member so that they can vote on issues that are important to us as domainers.


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## richard.schreier__ (Sep 14, 2021)

[notify]theinvestor[/notify] and [notify]MapleDots[/notify] with regards to your comments about revenues and CIRA as a not for profit and our broader mandate. I would encourage you to dig a little deeper into and understand what CIRA does in our mandate to help build a trusted internet for Canadians. It is a mission that goes well beyond simply operating the DNS in support of .CA domain names. 

In addition to a lot of information on our website, we have a mandate for transparency in reporting that ensures our activity is visible to key stakeholders including our Board of Directors, members and our registrants as well as Canadians in general. The upcoming Annual General Meeting is one such forum where the details are shared. 

I would encourage everyone participating in this forum to attend whether you are a member or not. The AGM is open to all, if you are not currently a member you need simply create an account. But you must be pre-registered which you can do here: https://member.cira.ca/Membership/E...bsitekey=fd912e04-394b-40ac-8034-b73df704c340


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## aactive (Sep 14, 2021)

richard.schreier said:
			
		

> I would encourage you to dig a little deeper into and understand what CIRA does in our mandate to help build a trusted internet for Canadians


.

Was that the mission that the Canadian Government intended for you? Or was it one CIRA decided it should take on?


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## richard.schreier__ (Sep 14, 2021)

[notify]aactive[/notify] that is the mission that has evolved over time with input and oversight of the Canadian Government as well as from our elected Board of Directors (12 elected by our members, 1 Government of Canada representative, 1 of the original founders of CIRA and our CEO) and of course by members voting at our AGMs.


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## aactive (Sep 14, 2021)

richard.schreier said:
			
		

> [notify]aactive[/notify] that is the mission that has evolved over time with input and oversight of the Canadian Government as well as from our elected Board of Directors (12 elected by our members, 1 Government of Canada representative, 1 of the original founders of CIRA and our CEO) and of course by members voting at our AGMs.



Richard, can I ask, since 2000, how many "domainers", (meaning non-registrars) that owned considerable .ca domain assets; 500 - 5,000 domains, have been CIRA board members?


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## richard.schreier__ (Sep 14, 2021)

[notify]aactive[/notify] I don't know the answer to that, but of course to be elected to the Board they must at least put their names forward as candidates, and again to be fair I don't know how many have done that in the past. Perhaps you might consider doing so in the future?


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## aactive (Sep 14, 2021)

richard.schreier said:
			
		

> [notify]aactive[/notify] I don't know the answer to that, but of course to be elected to the Board they must at least put their names forward as candidates, and again to be fair I don't know how many have done that in the past. Perhaps you might consider doing so in the future?



Richard, with all due respect, with the direction of CIRA in the last few years, I don't think I need that frustration in my life.


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## MapleDots__ (Sep 14, 2021)

Hey Richard

Thank you for posting, 

A lot of us already have such busy lives, I run 4 businesses and have 2 kids, I simply cannot add anything else to my plate.

That said, I very much appreciate you posting here and getting us the official version of what happens at CIRA. Sometimes speculation can be way off base and we may need to hear the other side of the conversation.

So thank you for chiming in, I appreciate you took the time.


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## richard.schreier__ (Sep 14, 2021)

[notify]MapleDots[/notify] thanks for the comment, that's one of the reasons I am hear to try and make sure the reality is better understood and that opinions can be based on solid data and not just "speculation" as you point out.


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## FM__ (Sep 15, 2021)

The only domainers or people close to the domain investing community (and I'm not 100% sure if I would count myself as such) that ran, as far as I know (I've been following this maybe since 2006 or so), would probably be Zak Muscovitch and myself. None of us got elected.


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## FM__ (Sep 15, 2021)

aactive said:
			
		

> Richard, with all due respect, with the direction of CIRA in the last few years, I don't think I need that frustration in my life.



Most people probably don't. That's why some years I do not run for the board and others I do. Unfortunately, most attempts to create a Canadian Domain Owners association failed or rather fell asleep. 

One factor to keep in mind when deciding how much time to spend on it, is always how important/valuable it is to your business. Not just for you specifically Shaun, but for all of us.


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## aactive (Sep 15, 2021)

FM said:
			
		

> Most people probably don't. That's why some years I do not run for the board and others I do. Unfortunately, most attempts to create a Canadian Domain Owners association failed or rather fell asleep.
> 
> One factor to keep in mind when deciding how much time to spend on it, is always how important/valuable it is to your business. Not just for you specifically Shaun, but for all of us.



Agree with you Frank. Getting domainers together on a shared vision is almost impossible; we all have diverse priorities. For me these days, e-commerce is my focus, and mostly when I think of domains it is "Can I and _*will I*_ build a business on this domain. If not, it's for sale. For others, it's a side-line, a passion, their main business and everything in between.


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## FM__ (Sep 24, 2021)

All of the proposals were rejected. Thank you to those who joined the AGM.

You can vote in the board elections now.


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## MapleDots__ (Sep 24, 2021)

Alex will be disappointed


Is he a member here?


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## FM__ (Sep 24, 2021)

I don't think he's here. 

[notify]MapleDots[/notify]: Can you please remove/correct the quote above that seems to imply that I posted Alex' address here? That probably happened by accident... it's public on this site anyways.


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## theinvestor__ (Sep 25, 2021)

Strange his address is posted but it was in the original post.


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## Alex B (Sep 27, 2021)

Someone asked the question - where is the money going?  Why do you suppose I asked the Board to disclose executive - not just CEO - compensation.  As a past Board member I do know the CEO compensation but can't disclose it because of Board confidentiality   I asked about the other executive compensation - NEO - but was denied.  I was frequently muzzled at the Board so I am suing CIRA to get that information.

Would you have confidence in the dispute resolution process if a Registrar owned a firm administering it?

many more questions to consider


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## MapleDots__ (Sep 27, 2021)

Welcome Alex

Let me know if you want your contact information removed.


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## FM__ (Sep 27, 2021)

MapleDots said:
			
		

> Upon your request I removed it from your post, but I feel Alex wants his contact information shown because he puts it in all his emails.



Oh, I see now, the quote was from the proposals, so that should be fine.


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## FM__ (Sep 27, 2021)

One thing to add - the topic of *domain warehousing* is already addressed by the contract with the registrar:

https://www.cira.ca/policy/legal-agreement/registrar-agreement



> 5.1 Throughout the Term of this Agreement, the Registrar shall:
> Throughout the Term of this Agreement, the Registrar shall:
> 
> (p)
> ...


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## theinvestor__ (Sep 27, 2021)

[notify]FM[/notify] do you really truly believe that there is no way around that? 

It’s nice to have these agreements but they are so easily evaded.


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## FM__ (Sep 27, 2021)

theinvestor said:
			
		

> [notify]FM[/notify] do you really truly believe that there is no way around that?
> 
> It’s nice to have these agreements but they are so easily evaded.



I guess the real question is if writing it into CIRA membership laws changes anything or rather using it as a reason to exclude registrars from the board changes anything. Any rule or law could be evaded.


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## Alex B (Sep 27, 2021)

where there is low trust, I subscribe to the approach of - "trust but verify".   when people in public institutions are opaque that begs many questions as to what they are hiding.


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## MapleDots__ (Sep 27, 2021)

As per Alex's request I have removed his address from all posts


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## rlm__ (Sep 27, 2021)

FM said:
			
		

> One thing to add - the topic of *domain warehousing* is already addressed by the contract with the registrar:
> 
> https://www.cira.ca/policy/legal-agreement/registrar-agreement



The big joke of this clause is that the entire TBR system is in direct contrast to this statement.  CIRA regulates the release of expiring domains to ONLY be available to registrars in TBR sessions, and all successful TBR registrars acquire these domain names SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF TRANSFERRING THEM FOR IMMEDIATE DIRECT PROFIT, by way of highest bidder auctions at prices reaching orders of magnitude higher than typical registration prices.  Furthermore, rather than evenly distributing expiring domains to all certified CIRA approved registrars, they created a new market for themselves by selling the TBR connections required to acquire these domains for a significant profit to CIRA - in essence creating their own auction system to increase a registrar's odds to acquire the domains.   So, CIRA 100% is aware of and clearly authorizes and encourages the purchase and reselling of .CA domain names, by CIRA certified registrars, at costs greatly exceeding actual registration costs, so that both CIRA and the registrars can profit from it.

So - what do ya'll think, does that sound contradictory or no?

I mean, I'm OK with it, after all, that's the system we've lived with and those are the rules we have been playing by so it seems worse to change how TBR works now.  But it does seem funny when no one really believes that certain registrars or their beneficial owners don't have large portfolios of domains for resale.  I'm not saying that everyone does, but you can be sure some do.

So I am highly skeptical that CIRA enforces that rule in any way shape or form.  It would be interesting to know, has CIRA ever enforced that rule??  And if so how?  By requiring the registrar to forfeit the domains when they get caught?  Or by revoking the registrar's license?  There's a huge difference in the two punishments.  Those are things that we'll never know because I don't believe CIRA ever lets any dirty laundry type of information like that to become public.


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## MapleDots__ (Sep 27, 2021)

rlm said:
			
		

> But it does seem funny when no one really believes that certain registrars or their beneficial owners don't have large portfolios of domains for resale.




I will add to that...


Lets pretend there are 200 TBR domains going to MyID in a month

Lets further pretend that 10% of the high bidders don't pay

Lets add that up over a year and then multiply it by years.


Where are those domains?
If anyone does not pay it will be a high bidder. lets say a 5k or 10k bid. The bidder defaults, we know it is a high value domain because it got bid up to 5 or 10k. Where is the unclaimed domain? Would you say in the registrars inventory?


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## jaydub__ (Sep 27, 2021)

I remember Siber used to have “ unclaimed/not paid” auctions. It was usually 30 -60 domains and I always liked participating and got a few really good domains. They haven’t done it for some time now but it does say that those types of domains do exist. Obviously WHC territory now and I doubt we’ll see those events again.
Ahhh…the good old days


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## rlm__ (Sep 27, 2021)

Yes exactly.  We know defaults happen.  The question is, where do the domains go?  Do they go back into TBR?  I suspect some do.  But I'm not sure that ALL do. Depends on the registrar of course.


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## theinvestor__ (Sep 27, 2021)

I hate thinking about people not paying for domains because how many domains were driven up in price by people who had no intention of paying? I know it shouldn’t matter since it’s the price you’re willing to pay. But, I still think everything is so anonymous no one knows what’s actually happening. In the past, there were other registrars other than Sibername that also sent names to those who wanted to purchase them. My recollection was that they just priced the domains on a first come first serve basis.


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## jaydub__ (Sep 28, 2021)

I remember them sending a link to the auction…with the names that you could bid on much the same as it looks when you are in auction for multiple names with them following tbr. It could be quite hectic


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