Watch your money go up in smoke (1 Viewing)

Cash is king

Tap on Debit is the biggest scam every perpetrated by banks - they act all nice with smiles, and "guarantee" that they will cover all fraud, but the MINUTE the card is stolen and the thieves go tapping, the banks will try to weasel out of all responsibility and leave you holding the bag.

The recent news is full of people getting jacked with Tap. One lady is still out $10K (the thieves spend more) because she had multiple CC and bank cards all with lovely "$1K to $2K minimum limits*" that the perps made short use of. The guys stole her purse right out of the car (they opened the door while she was at a stop light) and took off on a spending spree.

She got her money back from the credit cards, but the banks absolutely refused (as it's real money at stake) and she literally needed a policeman to call in and give info on the perps in order for one to refund, but I believe BMO and another bank has still refused and blame the victim for allowing her cards to be stolen.

She is currently out $10,000 and the banks are standing firm. And she's hardly alone - another guy was in the news and he lost $5K on fraudulent Tap with no return. Banks are greedy buggers when dealing with "real money". Remember that.

If you have Tap active on your Debit Card, then I would highly recommend that you call and disable it - VISA/MC still seems safe, again, because it's not real money. It's just insane how many people are getting their wallets or purses stolen in brazen daylight robberies and then having to fight banks (and lose) for thousands and thousands of lost dollars.

* And yes, that $25 Tap service we signed up for "small purchases like coffee or food" has now grown to a massive $1K minimum daily limit (i.e. you can't drop it any lower) - and sometimes higher - all for your "convenience" .

And the banks have a laundry list of TOS items they can use to refuse to give your money back.

One of the big outs the banks use is that if you make use of Tap then this "habitual behavior" makes it increasingly difficult to prove that it wasn't you buying the allegedly fraudulent purchases - the only way to get around that "out" is to NEVER use Tap and always use your chip & access code.

So then why have Tap? Exactly.

Victim blaming is another one, and they regularly contend you didn't protect your debit card properly so they have no responsibility to refund the lost money. Four guys surround an old lady and steal her purse, and BMO and TD will expect her to a) run away (she can barely walk) or b) go all "Bruce Lee" and fight them off... right.

I hate the idea of tap and the fact that scammers could be using it. Using a pin should be mandatory....

Taps typically have a max limit of $250 per tap. After that it’s really dependent on your bank daily limits. Banks never protect you in anything. So it really doesn’t stop at just tapping your card. They never protect you when it comes to cash in your account. They don’t want to take the loss so they do everything they can to deflect and make it your fault.

This applies to interac transfers (EMT’s) as well. Send a transfer to the wrong email and it gets auto deposited. You’re out of luck.

theinvestor said:

This applies to interac transfers (EMT’s) as well. Send a transfer to the wrong email and it gets auto deposited. You’re out of luck.

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E-transfers are as close to cash as it gets. If you give it to the wrong person you are out of luck.

theinvestor said:

Taps typically have a max limit of $250 per tap. After that it’s really dependent on your bank daily limits. Banks never protect you in anything. So it really doesn’t stop at just tapping your card. They never protect you when it comes to cash in your account. They don’t want to take the loss so they do everything they can to deflect and make it your fault.

This applies to interac transfers (EMT’s) as well. Send a transfer to the wrong email and it gets auto deposited. You’re out of luck.

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Yeah, there is some cause for concern about auto-deposit too. You definitely have to be careful when adding an email for e-transfer the first time. You do have to enter a pin, but, it could easily be made much safer. It would be better if at least the very first transaction to any new email address HAD to have a password and that subsequent deposits from that sender could be auto-deposited - but only IF auto-deposit is approved by both sides.

theinvestor said:

Taps typically have a max limit of $250 per tap.

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It's $250 per Tap transaction set by Interac - I'm referring to the default daily limit for Canadian banks of $1,000+ per bank account. It can be higher than $1K per day as "cumulative spend limits are set by banks and credit unions."

Tap all went south during COVID when Interac and banks took advantage of the "touchless" mandate and cranked up the daily limit several times. At $1K per bank account minimum, it's absolutely insane.

rlm said:

Yeah, there is some cause for concern about auto-deposit too.

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The scariest change for me has been allowing regular Joe's to auto-deposit checks via a quick phone scan into a bank app.

I gave my daughter a check for University in August and she immediately whipped out her phone, then scanned and deposited it. Uuuuuhhhhh... I knew businesses had this option, but to give it to the average consumer? That can't be a good idea and it's rife with fraud possibilities.

Plus, you only have 2 DAYS to report a fraudulent check or the transaction is final and your money is gone.

And I was right as I've been seeing report after report of people being scammed by this. And it's not people getting ahold of your checkbook and writing checks, it's digital scammers creating fake checks using software and a cancelled check scan (or download a TD/CIBC/BMO/etc. blank check from a scam site, add in the personal info, fill in the account number, check #, amount and hasty sig) then scanning them into the app straight from an iPad or other tablet. 2 days later when it clears, the scammers visit a bank machine in a hoodie and withdraw the cash from their scam/stolen/mule bank account, then run.

One guy lost $35K and his business because some scammer was uploading fake checks and draining his account. The checks were entirely faked digital creations and had numbers that he either had in-hand or didn't exist. He also doesn't have online banking and goes to the bank weekly for deposits and to get his statement.

Since it had been over 2 days and he didn't report the incredibly-obvious fraud within that tiny window, the bank told him the transactions were final and kicked him to the curb.

I'm sure many of you saw this on the news or online because it was for a significant amount, but that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of "fake check" uploading that banks freely allow and are entirely complicit on the resultant fraud.

I look at my bank accounts on a daily basis and so should you. It's like Crypto, as the Canadian banks all seem to be in the business of giving your money away to criminals and to continually develop easier methods for them to do so.

I can't even imagine what's next on the banks' pro-perp/wealth redistribution agenda.

DomainRecap said:

The scariest change for me has been allowing regular Joe's to auto-deposit checks via a quick phone scan into a bank app.

I gave my daughter a check for University in August and she immediately whipped out her phone, then scanned and deposited it. Uuuuuhhhhh... I knew businesses had this option, but to give it to the average consumer? That can't be a good idea and it's rife with fraud possibilities.

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I take a lot of cheques for one of my businesses and scan them at the end of the day in a single batch. It's not quite as insecure as you think, sometimes I enter the wrong amount or in rare cases I even scanned a cheque from a previous day.

In all cases the bank journalled to the correct dollar amount and/or reversed the cheque. A cheque is not like an e-transfer, it can come back out of your account for numerous reasons and I never consider a cheque permanent until at least two weeks have gone by. It's just like a credit card with the damn charge backs, numerous reasons the funds can come back out.

For E-Transfer the funds are mine once deposited. I have had the odd client trying to get funds back without returning the product and the banks always decline. My one online store only takes e-transfer and generates 1.7 million in sales annually. I cannot recall the last time something went wrong with auto deposit or a transfer getting hung up. I received 32 e-transfers yesterday for instance and that is about my daily average.

Another thing people don't know about tap is as a merchant I pay about 10 cents extra when a client taps instead of inserting the card. Those funds go into a slush fund to fund the insurance against tap fraud. All a client has to do is call the bank and the tap fraud will be redeposited.

Did you know if you read your credit card details that you have no insurance under $250 if you insert your card and use your pin? The bank can simply state you should protect your pin. For tap the secondary insurance kicks in and you get a refund from a totally different insurance. The baks easily hand this out.

Another thing... as a merchant I can reprint your entire credit card number and expiry on my receipt. I can override my machine to do this and charge you again online somewhere using your credentials.

For tap I only get 4 digits, I never see any of the credit card information. At a gas station with all the skimmers and cameras a tap is the best security because you have instant insurance and a scammer can never get your information.

Your phone is even more secure because the is another layer of security involving you unlocking the phone. You can change that setting to allow $100 without unlocking etc.

MapleDots said:

A cheque is not like an e-transfer, it can come back out of your account for numerous reasons and I never consider a cheque permanent until at least two weeks have gone by. It's just like a credit card with the damn charge backs, numerous reasons the funds can come back out.

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You should confirm this with your bank, as this is what that the guy who lost $35K thought, and he had a business account, but it had changed to 2 days for him.

And you're looking at the wrong direction - of course if you are dealing with regular people with real bank accounts and there is a problem, then the "funds can come back out", but we're dealing with scammers using fake or mule bank accounts who immediately withdraw it to $0 once the check clears.

At that point there is no money to take back and the bank targets you as the problem.

I just found this on an OPP website:

"Do a daily account reconciliation and report any fraudulent cheque withdrawals to your branch immediately. Some banks will only give you a 72-hour window to report a fraud"

Apparently some have now dropped the timeline to 48-hours.

And here's the story (it was actually $38K) and it's been confirmed by various sources:

Ontario businessman loses $38K in cheque-cashing scam

"TD Bank is saying they are not going to give me any money because I didn't report it right within 48 hours. How would I report it if I don't have online banking?" John said.

DomainRecap said:

You should confirm this with your bank, as this is what that the guy who lost $35K thought, and he had a business account, but it had changed to 2 days for him.

I just found this on an OPP website:

"Do a daily account reconciliation and report any fraudulent cheque withdrawals to your branch immediately. Some banks will only give you a 72-hour window to report a fraud"

Apparently some have now dropped the timeline to 48-hours.

And here's the story (it was actually $38K) and it's been confirmed by various sources:

Ontario businessman loses $38K in cheque-cashing scam

"TD Bank is saying they are not going to give me any money because I didn't report it right within 48 hours. How would I report it if I don't have online banking?" John said.

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I log in to my business accounts every single day and have my alerts set whenever funds over $1000 are released. Same with my credit/debit cards.

What the banks say and do is always different, cheques are the most insecure ways to give and receive funds. I only take them from people I know and you still have to be prepared to lose some funds.

I have lost significant funds to credit card fraud but quite honestly e-transfer has been a gold mine for me. No fraud at all!

MapleDots said:

I log in to my business accounts every single day and have my alerts set whenever funds over $1000 are released. Same with my credit/debit cards.

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Yes, but once again, not everyone has or wants online banking and this guy did not have it.

And even if you do, what if you're injured, in the hospital, on vacation with limited internet? 48-hours is a freaking microscopic period of time to report all fraud, especially with the banks leaving an open door to your accounts.

And this story and problem is NOT about checks, it's about giving every Canadian, good or bad, the ability to upload fake, digitally-created checks all day and night with virtually no repercussions*. Physical checks provided an additional layer of security that is not available now.

Prior to this, banks had to store cancelled checks for 5 years, but now they never even see a physical check when you upload it. So naturally, digital check fraud flourishes.

* In these cases of check fraud, the police were not even involved until the banks refused refund and the victim initiated it. This is a common thread with banks, they only worry about money and never about the victims or alerting police to the perpetrators.

But some hacker breaks in their system and steals their money, and every cop in Canada will be on the case.

rlm said:

Yeah, there is some cause for concern about auto-deposit too. You definitely have to be careful when adding an email for e-transfer the first time.

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Agreed, whenever I add a new contact I email them first and ask a question only they would know. When they respond back I copy that email address to my contacts.

Interesting discussion. I've hated the idea that thieves could steal a wallet/purse and immediately start tapping away. But @MapleDots makes a good point about using your pin where it would be easy for cameras or sensors to steal your pin making you more liable than tap. Something to ponder.

I never use cash, I truly like using different credit cards for different purposes - keeping all transactions separate and organized. It also makes it easy to categorize expenses and readily see what doesn't look right. On my cards, I have every transaction texted to me, regardless of the limit, so I can immediately detect fraud, which would allow me to immediately freeze the card from my phone or laptop. So I feel like I'm about as covered as I can be with credit cards.

The check deposit issue is a bit scary if true, as obviously that can be easily faked. I've been depositing checks for years using my bank phone app, and have never had an issue. I believe banks put holds on check deposits based on the depositor's credit history and balance, and I doubt that new accounts of scammers would have that quick of access to those funds. But I suppose that might be manipulated too - scammers seem to always find the weak link and exploit it. I write so few checks (none) - I wonder if I could request that check writing be disabled for my accounts (assuming it doesn't affect anything else) ? Has anyone ever done that or heard of that?

rlm said:

The check deposit issue is a bit scary if true, as obviously that can be easily faked. I've been depositing checks for years using my bank phone app, and have never had an issue. I believe banks put holds on check deposits based on the depositor's credit history and balance, and I doubt that new accounts of scammers would have that quick of access to those funds.

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A lot of these bank accounts were set up in advance or are from people who used to live here, but moved back to their home country. There is a lot of the latter out there already being used for eTransfer scams and it's only growing (like our population).

Perps also use mules, i.e. older people that are in financial trouble and accept "help" from others, who then demand "favors" such as selling drugs from their house, providing living quarters for other perps, or helping in illicit schemes.

So these mules (with a longtime credit record and perhaps known to the banks) set up multiple new bank accounts across the city or area, then give the access cards to the perps, who then run scam after scam after scam. If you don't identify the fraud within 48-hours the bank won't give your money back and just forgets about it.

And yes, you and I and Maple check out bank accounts daily, but they're not targeting us. They're going after more vulnerable people - through moles at banks and other institutions, they know who they can steal from. And don't laugh as even the big gangs in Toronto (let alone organized crime) have people everywhere, including the RCMP and CSIS.

The criminals running these operations are not idiots and know exactly how to manipulate the already-lax bank security. I predict this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to faked digital check cashing - under the current system, it's just too easy to scam using Photoshop, a Darkweb identity file, in iPad and a camera bank app.