YCD.ca Transferred To Complainant (2.Viewing)

BTW:

1. CIRA themselves acknowledges the aftermarket, they occasional post aftermarket sales data on their website.

2. CIRA profits from the aftermarket. The entire purpose of TBR is for CIRA and their registrars to profit from domain resales at aftermarket (above retail) type pricing. CIRA profits by charging registrars fees for participating in TBR.

3. CIRA has bought domains they wanted for their own use in the aftermarket themselves.

Exactly! So to call 10K USD excessive in a dispute is mind boggling. I guess the TBR prices are excessive and something should be done about it.

“It can be inferred from the fact that the domain name was advertised for sale at USD$10,000 that it was registered with the intention of selling it to the Complainant, which is defined in the Policy as bad faith. Moreover, the price at which the domain name was offered was excessive and far in excess of the Registrant’s actual registration costs.”
 
Exactly! So to call 10K USD excessive in a dispute is mind boggling. I guess the TBR prices are excessive and something should be done about it.

“It can be inferred from the fact that the domain name was advertised for sale at USD$10,000 that it was registered with the intention of selling it to the Complainant, which is defined in the Policy as bad faith. Moreover, the price at which the domain name was offered was excessive and far in excess of the Registrant’s actual registration costs.”

Total bullshit. Countless domains have been sold over that price, and happily so by both parties. "inferred" ??? Fuck that. Inferring anything is fucked up in a CDRP case. "excessive" ??? Who defines excessive? I'd say excessive might be $10M for a .ca domain name. $10K is run of the mill pricing for any one word or 2 or 3 letter acronym.
 
I’m not really a fan of this comment. If every domain you own was worth a few thousand bucks I’m sure you’d be pretty happy. I would be a multi-millionaire. But, keep in mind this domain might be worth only a few thousand in your eyes but I guarantee it was worth a lot to the new owners. So, in this case the registrant not only got screwed out of that, but the resolution process profits off the name rather than the owner of the domain. This was swept from under him in my opinion with no good reason.

Not one of my best comments but regardless of what the domain owner does he's screwed. The only hope is that the panelist knows what he is doing and we can all see how that worked out.
 
The Nanaimo Airport Commission's claim to trademark rights in YCD are suspect since CIPO refused to even allow their trademark application for Nanaimo Airport YCD.

I recommend that Chris orders a certified copy of the CIPO file and use it as evidence if he decides to sue for damages and misrepresentation in small claims court.

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Total bullshit. Countless domains have been sold over that price, and happily so by both parties. "inferred" ??? f*** that. Inferring anything is fucked up in a CDRP case. "excessive" ??? Who defines excessive? I'd say excessive might be $10M for a .ca domain name. $10K is run of the mill pricing for any one word or 2 or 3 letter acronym.

I don’t believe you can even say anything is excessive. If I go to any random business and they refuse to sell me their domain for 10K or 100k is that excessive of them? It’s not up to anyone else to determine if anything is excessive. Each person has a different value on their domain. If I value a domain at 10M. So be it…I’m not forcing anyone to buy it. If I run a business on the domain now or later again that’s no one’s business. I’ve sold domains 10+ years ago that never got developed. The buyer paid and the transaction was completed. No one questions them why they aren’t using the domain…no one questions why there are hundreds of Amazon domains or Microsoft domains that are not in use. This legitimate onus that constantly has to be proved is getting out of hand. Along with this bad faith nonsense.
 
The GoDaddy [wholesale auction] Estimated Value for ycd.ca is $2,553 USD.

The end user sale price is usually 3x to 10x the GoDaddy value or auction price (for .com domain names).

And there are 5 other entities with YCD in their names that might want to also own this domain name.

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I don’t believe you can even say anything is excessive. If I go to any random business and they refuse to sell me their domain for 10K or 100k is that excessive of them? It’s not up to anyone else to determine if anything is excessive. Each person has a different value on their domain. If I value a domain at 10M. So be it…I’m not forcing anyone to buy it. If I run a business on the domain now or later again that’s no one’s business. I’ve sold domains 10+ years ago that never got developed. The buyer paid and the transaction was completed. No one questions them why they aren’t using the domain…no one questions why there are hundreds of Amazon domains or Microsoft domains that are not in use. This legitimate onus that constantly has to be proved is getting out of hand. Along with this bad faith nonsense.

I agree with that in principle. A price should really never come into the equation. But there is the reality that a truly unreasonable price could influence a panelist. In this case, the price quoted was actually quite reasonable though. And that is what makes the decision despicable.

I haven't actually read this decision yet, but if the asking price was the only evidence of bad faith, then that's complete bs. If a panelist feels they have to "infer" evidence of bad faith based on an asking price, you'd think they'd have enough integrity to at least cross check the data with historical domain sales prices. In my mind, a panelist that would just claim a price is unreasonable without evidence is shady AF. Clearly that panelist isn't good at their job, doesn't it take it as seriously as they should, and thus shouldn't qualify to be an neutral arbitrator for CDRP cases. Or, they simply have a personal agenda and had already made up their mind in the case without considering actual facts - they were stretching to make the decision go they way they had already predetermined.

HOWEVER - it isn't necessarily the panelist's job to go find facts on their own. This is where if you read a complaint and they mention the quoted price - I would call it the respondent's duty to show that the quoted price is within the range of historical sales, and then the panelist is forced to consider that evidence and thus could no longer claim the price was unreasonable. They can no longer "infer" anything from it if you provide the evidence to the contrary. LET THIS BE A LESSON.
 
Another reason I do not list my domains for sale and do not respond with prices to inquiries. Feel free to make an offer but it doesn’t mean I’m selling it. Thanks and have a good day.
 
This is apparently the nail in the coffin:

“The evidence of the Wayback Machine shows that from January 2014...

Hindsight is 20/20, but if the owner had control over the landing page/hosting, they could have wiped all Wayback Machine pages for that domain with a simple little text file. All you have to do is ensure that when the following page is loaded:

http://%YOURDOMAIN%.CA/robots.txt

that it contains the plain text below:

User-agent: ia_archiver
Disallow: /


That will block the Wayback Machine's ia_archiver bot from showing any pages from the past for that domain. If you add that file, then go and request that domain/page from the Wayback Machine's interface. The bot should see that file and all content will be gone... but will come back if you ever remove that file.

That is one good reason to control your own domains' hosting. Better to redirect the name via http location redirect, then have someone else handle the DNS. Not all parking or landing services will support that though.

If I ran a parking/landing service, I'd wildcard catch all %domain%/robots.txt requests and serve up the 2 lines above.. or make it optional I guess. An optional feature :) I'd hate to be responsible for someone loosing a domain 10 years later because of some automated context based image.

Hope this helps someone in the future.
 
That will block the Wayback Machine's ia_archiver bot from showing any pages from the past for that domain. If you add that file, then go and request that domain/page from the Wayback Machine's interface. The bot should see that file and all content will be gone... but will come back if you ever remove that file.

That is super helpful information to have but usually by the time the CDRP is launched the complainant already has their screen shots.
 
The Nanaimo Airport Commission's claim to trademark rights in YCD are suspect since CIPO refused to even allow their trademark application for Nanaimo Airport YCD.

I recommend that Chris orders a certified copy of the CIPO file and use it as evidence if he decides to sue for damages and misrepresentation in small claims court.

1664405596096.png

IATA codes are used as geographical locations on Twitter including #ycd.

https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=#ycd&src=typed_query

Geographical indicators are not registrable as trademarks in Canada, as per 12(1)(b) of the Trademarks Act.

The CDRP decision is clearly wrong.
 
Hey , Sorry for delayed response but this has been hard, I don’t know where to begin…I feel this was aggressive and my words twisted . Half this stuff I don’t even recognize, I will start with a few points below and open this up to question. This is a start. (I’ve never seen a tone of this nature in any other decisions I have read)

-YCD.ca domain was never listed for sale anywhere. they approached me through CIRA using a Godaddy broker.
-domain was purchased in TBR auction with no knowledge of complainant
-I have been investing in domains for many years so I have legitimate rights to own a domain.
-I‘ve sold 3 letter domains for over 10k, so price was actually more than fair.

There is so much more but for now I’ll just say thanks for all the posts and If anyone has questions I will try to answer them


Chris
 
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The decision has some nefarious aspects to it.

I was aware of this case and have chatted with @Stewie and I can tell you his words were definitely twisted. To me it almost seems like the decision was influenced by one party and there are a lot of remaining questions here.
 
I agree with that in principle. A price should really never come into the equation. But there is the reality that a truly unreasonable price could influence a panelist. In this case, the price quoted was actually quite reasonable though. And that is what makes the decision despicable.

I haven't actually read this decision yet, but if the asking price was the only evidence of bad faith, then that's complete bs. If a panelist feels they have to "infer" evidence of bad faith based on an asking price, you'd think they'd have enough integrity to at least cross check the data with historical domain sales prices. In my mind, a panelist that would just claim a price is unreasonable without evidence is shady AF. Clearly that panelist isn't good at their job, doesn't it take it as seriously as they should, and thus shouldn't qualify to be an neutral arbitrator for CDRP cases. Or, they simply have a personal agenda and had already made up their mind in the case without considering actual facts - they were stretching to make the decision go they way they had already predetermined.

HOWEVER - it isn't necessarily the panelist's job to go find facts on their own. This is where if you read a complaint and they mention the quoted price - I would call it the respondent's duty to show that the quoted price is within the range of historical sales, and then the panelist is forced to consider that evidence and thus could no longer claim the price was unreasonable. They can no longer "infer" anything from it if you provide the evidence to the contrary. LET THIS BE A LESSON.
Always show sales comps from various sources to show that the domain name has an inherent market value.

This market value will be essential in a claim for damages from the loss of the domain name in small claims court.

Cite namebio.com and dnjournal.com top year to date sales of similar domain names for each of the past 5 years.

It must be established that domain name investing is a legitimate business. A well reasoned court decision could be a valuable reference for all domain name owners.

Don't let this opportunity slide.
 
What about educating the decision makers? Maybe invite them here to discuss the outcome so they can see the error of their ways. If they don't show up shame them and send them a link here when they make a wrong decision. If there are no consequences to wrong decisions they will continue unabated. The answer is to educate the domain holder and the ones that set the policies.
 
So yesterday I listened to CIIRDC's live roundtable discussion which @rlm brought to our attention a few weeks ago and they did speak of the YCD.ca decision a few times, including at the very end which is how the discussion ended.

It might come to no surprise but the speakers made it pretty clear that the registrant lost because of the airplane and arrivals/departures graphics showing on the landing page. They wrote a 25 page decision when really it just all boiled down to this:

“The evidence of the Wayback Machine shows that from January 2014 it carried depictions of an airliner taking off and an airliner landing and the words “Arrivals” and “Departures”. The Registrant at one point stated that Voodoo was responsible for the content of whatever web page it was that was captured by the Wayback Machine. It certainly showed that someone was well aware that the domain name had a connection with an airport and the arrival and departure of aircraft. The icons of the aircraft look suspiciously like a promotion of the domain name and its possible sale on the basis that it is connected with an airport and that it might be of particular value and interest to someone connected with airports, airlines or aviation or merely someone who would like to make money from it.

The Panel’s concern is that this evidence has appeared, but with no explanation from the Registrant as to whether he knew about it or did anything to deter it. As the evidence shows this landing page with the “arrival” and “departure” buttons had been hosted at the domain name for some time, the Panel is prepared to infer that the Registrant was aware of it. Clearly, the Panel is limited in the conclusions it can reach on the limited evidence, but the icons on the web page to which the domain name resolved, only weaken the Registrant’s case that his buying and keeping and offering the domain name for sale had nothing to with its being the IATA code for Nanaimo Airport.”

One of the speakers in the roundtable was actually one of the panelists in the YCD case (Plotkin) so he explicitly said he would decline to comment, but the meeting finished by the rest of them agreeing that "moral of the story is that if he wanted to establish good faith/legitimate interest, then make sure that domain doesn't resolve to anything showing airplanes". I might have the language wrong, but it was something among those lines. It's also possible they will publish the video on youtube eventually.
 
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I missed the roundtable - got distracted, too many things going on. But I was just about to watch the recording of it. Since I had registered, I received an email after the roundtable and I replied to it asking if there was a video. They responded right back with the video link and a password! Nice.
 
I watched the video of the roundtable and for the most part it was fairly predictable but pretty good, the panellists seemed mostly fair and logical in their analyses of various cases. I also noticed that @FM and @Zak watched the roundtable and made some comments in the chat feature, glad to see I wasn't the only one interested in this.

I wish I had watched it live because I would have called a presenter out on it immediately, but there was a disturbing thing I noticed while watching the replay:

The presenter named Georgina Danzig tried to kick things off by generically describing how the complainant must pass the 3-prong test required to win a dispute in CDRP or UDRP. You can find this at 06:15 mark in the video. At 06:29, instead of just saying "the domain" she says "the offending domain", and at 09:40 she again references "the offending domain". Remember, she's not even talking about a real case here, just an overview of the rules, and she's repeatedly said "offending domain" as if she's already decided in her mind that the respondent is always guilty!! I can't be the only one to have caught that, right?? While it may have been a slip of the tongue, it clearly shows where her mindset is. Lets hope she's never allowed to be a panellist!

And there was another moment where Georgina shows her colours. At the 51:30 mark, Georgina brings up a point about the fact that in egregious cases where a complainant uses CDRP as a plan B, that the panel can award costs of up to $5000. @FM even commented about it at the time, but I think you completely misunderstood her Frank. Georgina was not saying that a complainant should get penalized for reverse hijacking attempts, she was wanting complainants to be awarded_costs in addition to getting the domain transferred when they win a CDRP - so completely the opposite of what you thought she said. You'll have to rewatch it. Thankfully the presenter and dispute panelist James Plotkin astutely pointed out to her that panellists are typically trademark lawyers who also represent these complainants, and that it might just be going too far to give panellists that much power, and that the ability to transfer or cancel the domain was enough.

I also noted that Mr Plotikin mentioned that he didn't know of any costs ever being awarded in CDRP. Zak must have momentarily tuned out or bit his tongue, I know Zak has successfully argued for costs at least once.

Overall I thought the session was good and I'll continue to try and watch them in the future. I'd highly suggest any serious domainer to also listen in. As long as you register, it seems you can get the video link afterwards. That's nice because you can save a little time by listening to the playback at 1.25x or 1.5x speeds, not to mention the convenience of listening whenever you have time. But you do miss out on the ability to chat live with participants and the panellists.
 
At 06:29, instead of just saying "the domain" she says "the offending domain", and at 09:40 she again references "the offending domain".

Guilty until proven otherwhise
 

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