Fabulous auto renew (7.Viewing)

If CIRA conducts an investigation into this matter, they would certainly cancel the new domain registration using their window of time to do so and return the domain to the original owner. I am certain @richard.schreier will not leave no stone unturned.

Now I am scared if this was the case, where CIRA sends a "redeemed" notification and then the domain gets cancelled and slips into TBR. I think CIRA owes everyone here an assurance that it will not happen ever and update us on what really the situation regarding this matter.

As for me, I am not aware of the domain in question or the details, but I trust @rlm and his judgment in posting this issue. I would like to hear from @CIRA to address this issue to the benefit of everyone here.

Also, I am still awaiting to hear an answer to my question I raised here

It's very helpful when a certified Registrar could enlighten us on the process and changes that occured.
Thanks @bmetal (Tom) for your input and we certainly appreciate it.

Eby said:

Now I am scared if this was the case, where CIRA sends a "redeemed" notification and then the domain gets cancelled and slips into TBR. I think CIRA owes everyone here an assurance that it will not happen ever and update us on what really the situation regarding this matter.

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redeemed is NOT the same as renewed. And this is another problem with auto-renewals, the registry CAN NOT send "domain has been renewed" notices for single year renewals of domains in auto-renew-grace period, because the registrar action is "do nothing except make a mental note", and CIRA thus doesn't know if/when the domain is renewed.

a registrar can't renew a domain in redemption-grace period... they have to redeem it first, and THEN renew it (assuming it doesn't come back as auto-renew-grace which is the new wrinkle).

-Tom

Eby said:

If CIRA conducts an investigation into this matter, they would certainly cancel the new domain registration using their window of time to do so and return the domain to the original owner.

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But if this domain was auctioned off, then CIRA better damn well make sure the winner is fully compensated for their non-win, otherwise they'll be in another big tub of hot water.

Many of these recent TBR domain auctions (especially the LLLs) have been hitting 4-figures so let's not forget there might be an innocent party out thousands of dollars if the CIRA just arbitrarily starts stealing back domains without getting the registrar(s) fully onboard.

bmetal said:

redeemed is NOT the same as renewed. And this is another problem with auto-renewals, the registry CAN NOT send "domain has been renewed" notices for single year renewals of domains in auto-renew-grace period, because the registrar action is "do nothing except make a mental note", and CIRA thus doesn't know if/when the domain is renewed.

a registrar can't renew a domain in redemption-grace period... they have to redeem it first, and THEN renew it (assuming it doesn't come back as auto-renew-grace which is the new wrinkle).

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The more I read, the more I wonder how deep this rabbit hole goes.

bmetal said:

redeemed is NOT the same as renewed. And this is another problem with auto-renewals, the registry CAN NOT send "domain has been renewed" notices for single year renewals of domains in auto-renew-grace period, because the registrar action is "do nothing except make a mental note", and CIRA thus doesn't know if/when the domain is renewed.

a registrar can't renew a domain in redemption-grace period... they have to redeem it first, and THEN renew it (assuming it doesn't come back as auto-renew-grace which is the new wrinkle).

-Tom

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Wow, this sounds complicating for sure. I wish CIRA can make it convenient for all concerned here, especially Registrars who now have to make a "mental note" - that sounds crazy to me. It might be worthwhile for all Registrants to chime in and request CIRA to make the necessary changes that would be helpful to everyone. You have my vote on this, if there would be a poll on this matter.

DomainRecap said:

But if this domain was auctioned off, then CIRA better damn well make sure the winner is fully compensated for their non-win, otherwise they'll be in another big tub of hot water.

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I think they will annul the recent registration and request the Registar to return the amount charged for the win I believe. I don't think the winner would stand to lose money on this, but such a waste of time and energy having to sit through the auction process and not disregarding the disappointment.

DomainRecap said:

Many of these recent TBR domain auctions (especially the LLLs) have been hitting 4-figures so let's not forget there might be an innocent party out thousands of dollars if the CIRA just arbitrarily starts stealing back domains without getting the registrar(s) fully onboard.

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(for obvious reasons) you folks know the other registrars better than I do, but would you really consider continuing business with a registrar who kept your money for a sale which basically didn't complete? I know you think you don't have a choice, but you certainly could at least band together and stop bidding against each other (I may regret saying that : )

. I wish CIRA can make it convenient for all concerned here, especially Registrars who now have to make a "mental note" - that sounds crazy to me

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"mental note" was the way we were supposed to be handling domains in auto-renew-grace since the first (2008?) EPP cutover. Some of us simply preferred having the renewals locked in and done "now" ... and figured out a way to push the system into letting us do that... until CIRA "fixed" the system.

bmetal said:

but would you really consider continuing business with a registrar who kept your money for a sale which basically didn't complete? I know you think you don't have a choice, but you certainly could at least band together and stop bidding against each other

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Sounds like a revolution is about to start.

Eby said:

It's very helpful when a certified Registrar could enlighten us on the process and changes that occured.
Thanks @bmetal (Tom) for your input and we certainly appreciate it.

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Agree thank you for your insight Tom

Eby said:

Wow, this sounds complicating for sure. I wish CIRA can make it convenient for all concerned here, especially Registrars who now have to make a "mental note" - that sounds crazy to me. It might be worthwhile for all Registrants to chime in and request CIRA to make the necessary changes that would be helpful to everyone. You have my vote on this, if there would be a poll on this matter.

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I'm not too good with "mental notes" myself lol

Well it seems obvious now that you can’t just run a successful registrar business on cruise control and hope for the best. As @bmetal just demonstrated, you’ve got to stay on top of it.

I personally don’t think anything major will change. CIRA made these changes for a reason, probably so they can make their registry system more in line with others. The question is, are they doing it to potentially make more sales of their Fury registry product? Or to run a better .ca registry for Canadians? I hope its the latter.

The one thing that might change is that CIRA may learn the lesson that they shouldn’t make changes without warning registrars. Personally I think maybe they should get feedback from the registrars before they ever implement changes. I wonder if they have any advisory panel of interested registrars they can be working with?

rlm said:

The one thing that might change is that CIRA may learn the lesson that they shouldn’t make changes without warning registrars. Personally I think maybe they should get feedback from the registrars before they ever implement changes. I wonder if they have any advisory panel of interested registrars they can be working with?

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Fully agree. Rather than make changes and staying quiet for the Registrars to figure it out, notifying them in advance and reminding those who haven't updated or implemented them, would be helpful.

I know Registrars who didn't update their requirements and submitted domain requests during a TBR run, were rejected and I know of a Registrar who was complaining to CIRA about it (God bless his soul)

DomainTrader said:

I'm not too good with "mental notes" myself lol

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(neither am I... but in case clarification helps....)

It's just a database entry that says a given domain was really renewed, don't delete it just because it is in auto-renew-grace and X days old (depends on the registrar aprox 35 days for us).

For those registrars (like us) who "locked in" renewals ... we didn't need anything like this. But we were pushing against the grain and had to put messages in our system warning about "scary" messages that CIRA would send out about "deleted" domains. At least CIRA would follow it with a "renewed" message.

... blah, I'll make this longer again. Those who know me, know I tend to provide full answers, often to all the questions or options...

-Tom

p.s.

You folks probably know this, but I'll do a little review of auto-renewals and spell out some of the implications.

When a domain goes beyond it's expiry date without being explicitly renewed, CIRA automagically renews it and puts it in the "autoRenewPeriod" (just looked it up) state. They also bill the registrar for the renewal at this point.

Registrars have 45 days to submit a "delete" command for the domain and cancel this auto-renewal and get a refund. When the delete is submitted the domain goes into "redemptionPeriod". Some registrars will do this immediately, others (most?) will wait until near the 45 day limit. If the domain is not deleted in the 45 day limit, the domain goes back to a normal ("ok") status, and the registrar can not get a refund of the renewal.

A domain in autoRenewPeriod is (or would be) fully functional, which would not tell the client their domain is expired... so most(?) registrars will put a clientHold flag on the domain which takes it out of the DNS system and makes it behave like I would expect an expired domain to behave.

As I said, deleted domains go to redemptionPeriod, during which a registrar can redeem and renew the domain if a tardy client shows up asking for a renewal (or it's a registrar that deleted the domain early). A domain that goes 30 days in redemptionPeriod period without been renewed goes onto the TBR list.


-Tom

I probably should summarize my current guess.

affected registrar tried to do what we did (lock in a renewal) by deleting the domain and then redeeming it. Upon completing the redemption, they noted that the expiry date said the domain was renewed and their system figured things were "good". (They failed to note the domain was in "autoRenewPeriod" state.) At this point the registrar expected renewed domains to be in an "ok" state (anything but autoRenewPeriod). Everything would be fine if the story ended here.

... but it doesn't, at some point unpaid autorenewals need to be deleted. Since the registrar did NOT make a "mental note" (lol), they go through all their auto-renewals that are X (35 for us) days old, and delete them. Oops.

It's just a guess. But it fits. It fits too well : ( -Tom

bmetal said:

redeemed is NOT the same as renewed

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And just for the record, the email sent by CIRA clearly states that the redeemed domain included a renewal. This is exactly what the email says:

"You’ve successfully redeemed your .CA domain <domainname> from the Redemption Grace Period by renewing it with your registrar. It’s nice to have you back!"

So if that's not strictly true on the registrar back-end side of things, then CIRA probably shouldn't be stating that in their email as if it were a fact.

If anyone knows the domains in question that went in the TBR, and are comfortable divulging them in confidence, I'd appreciate it as I'd like to know if I own any. Thanks.

Eby said:

I think they will annul the recent registration and request the Registar to return the amount charged for the win I believe. I don't think the winner would stand to lose money on this, but such a waste of time and energy having to sit through the auction process and not disregarding the disappointment.

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I know the buyer would eventually get a refund, but if this claw-back happens I'd like the CIRA to take point on this and ensure it happens concurrently so that no one has to run after a registrar weeks (or months) later.

Yes, it would be nice to know if someone could provide a list of these domains. I don’t see why we would keep them private at this point?

WHOIS Domain Name Lookup | CIRA

Is this the official database to check to make sure that renewals are actually getting renewed?