TBR Musings - September 29, 2021 (1.Viewing)

just had some weird shit go down during auction at Sibername.
I was low bidder, had to bid $45 as next bid. So I did, and then decided to up my proxy another $10 to $55. I submitted and confirmed it, so it showed me in the green as high bidder at $45 with a $55 Max Bid. Then later i refresh it and it says I'm no longer the high bidder and that the current bid is $55 with the next bid being $65. And somehow, despite the fact I previously had a $55 max bid, I was now the loser, with the current bid at $55. That shouldn't be possible... we've both bid higher since then, so it no longer matters, but it still shouldn't have happened. clearly a little logic flaw in there somewhere.
 
rlm said:
just had some weird shit go down during auction at Sibername.
I was low bidder, had to bid $45 as next bid. So I did, and then decided to up my proxy another $10 to $55. I submitted and confirmed it, so it showed me in the green as high bidder at $45 with a $55 Max Bid. Then later i refresh it and it says I'm no longer the high bidder and that the current bid is $55 with the next bid being $65. And somehow, despite the fact I previously had a $55 max bid, I was now the loser, with the current bid at $55. That shouldn't be possible... we've both bid higher since then, so it no longer matters, but it still shouldn't have happened. clearly a little logic flaw in there somewhere.
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I've sent you an email about this one.
 
Today, there was an issue affecting 6 domains that ended up getting registered at a later time than expected. Due to the timing, some of you have received a note that we didn't get the domain, while this was not the case.

The issue has been identified and should be corrected for next week's run. Those 5 domains only had a single bidder and were delivered to the bidders. One domain had more than one bidder so the auction for this domain will be re-run next week after the TBR session.

Please note, the majority of the DevOps team at WHC is located right here in Montreal.
 
FM said:
Today, there was an issue affecting 6 domains that ended up getting registered at a later time than expected.
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Just a note that there were a lot more domains affected by the issue than just 6, and those few were just the ones that did not get picked up by other registrars, often a lot later in the run.

Any update on what happened to the portion of the TBR orders placed at Siber/WHC that were not processed this week? And is the issue fixed?
 
DomainRecap said:
Just a note that there were a lot more domains affected by the issue than just 6, and those few were just the ones that did not get picked up by other registrars, often a lot later in the run.

Any update on what happened to the portion of the TBR orders placed at Siber/WHC that were not processed this week? And is the issue fixed?
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Thanks for responding to my email as well.

Yes, I neglected to confirm that we would have also missed out on some domains during the TBR run itself, that's correct, but there's nothing that we can do about those.

The issue was a result of the continuous changes/improvements that we're making to the process - an error in the code. The code was fixed and deployed this morning.
 
FM said:
The issue has been identified and should be corrected for next week's run. Those 5 domains only had a single bidder and were delivered to the bidders. One domain had more than one bidder so the auction for this domain will be re-run next week after the TBR session.
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Just out of curiosity - who came to the conclusion that continuing on with an auction was the right thing to do? Or that charging TBR pricing for domains registered by Sibername outside of the TBR session when they should technically be standard pricing, no? Did you consult anyone at CIRA for guidance?

That practice would seem to contravene the registrar agreement 5.1 (p) rules - those exact clauses you pointed out earlier. A specific registrant didn't register them, the registrar did so they could auction them for a much larger profit margin. Personally I think WHC/Sibername should have never registered them outside of the TBR session under the same rules/auction system used for TBR.

I'm not trying to be a dick here because a few bucks or these domains don't make a difference to me, and it may seem like a reasonably fair way to handle this situation, but I still don't think its the _right_ option. Accepting your proposal to re-auction the domain off next week probably helps me, so any thing I say to dissuade that is hurting me. But the issue I have is setting a precedent that a registrar can feel comfortable getting away with registering domain names outside of TBR sessions and then start auctioning them off. To me, that is completely against the spirit of 5.1 (p).

As mentioned, I believe that MyID's method of handling domain names not registered within the TBR session is the best way to handle it. Take reservations on a first come first served basis, and price them at standard domain registration prices.

I understand that this was a mistake on WHC/Sibernames part, then they thought it was a good idea to recover from the mistake by buying the domains after the TBR session. But now that the mistake was made, in my opinion, the only real options to put the genie back in the bottle and handle this 100% correctly would be to either:

A. Release all of the domains registered outside of TBR so they can go back into a future TBR

or

B. Award the domains with only one bidder to that bidder, but at standard registration prices. And for domains with more than one bidder, the domain should go back into a future TBR as well.

So I'm just curious what our CIRA representative [notify]richard.schreier[/notify] thinks about this, I would respect his thoughts on what is the correct way to handle this situation.
 
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rlm, thank you for those questions, as we're moving into the weekend, I'll have to discuss this internally and will get back to you next week.
 
I’m interested to know a couple of things. Did they register the domains through TBR or did they manually register the domains? I mean, when does the TBR session actually end? Technically if they were able to register them prior to anyone else and through their TBR system are they doing anything wrong? It’s a case of these domains not being backordered elsewhere.
 
theinvestor said:
I’m interested to know a couple of things. Did they register the domains through TBR or did they manually register the domains? I mean, when does the TBR session actually end? Technically if they were able to register them prior to anyone else and through their TBR system are they doing anything wrong? It’s a case of these domains not being backordered elsewhere.
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My understanding based on the timing of the registrations is that they all occurred more than an hour after the start of TBR. But you are correct [notify]theinvestor[/notify], if they were registered before the end of the TBR session, then they would fall under the precedent of how the TBR sessions currently operate. But if they were registered AFTER the TBR session ended, that's where I believe it contravenes section 5.1 (p) of the Registrar Agreement. Domains registered outside of TBR on behalf of a single registrant should be subject to standard pricing, and should not be auctioned off. That precedent exists for TBR, I don't want to see it set for registrations made by registrars outside of TBR. That would entirely change the game and violate section 5.1 (p). That opens the doors to shit like Network Solutions used to do where they were temporarily registering a domain simply because it was checked in whois, then trying to charge a much higher price to acquire it as if it was an aftermarket domain rather than a new registration. But you are right, it would be good to clarify. My assumption is that the TBR session was already closed since the domains were registered more than 1 hour after the TBR session opened.

I know because I was checking whois every few seconds waiting for the domains to show up as available so I could hand reg them myself - but then all of a sudden - they were all registered by sibername.
 
The last domain that was registered by WHC was at 14:00:04.998 and WHC registered a total of 31 domains during TBR. Since I was not following TBR closely that day, I wouldn't know which domain made it to the auction.

But if, one is to trust TBR results posted weekly by CIRA and WHC, then I would assume, the domains that were claimed to be registered after about an hour or so, was clearly not a TBR domain.

Would be interesting to see what @FM would have to share. It might be a good thing for CIRA to cancel those registrations that occurred on that day from the entire TBR list made available, since they are within the 14 days period.

I have been at the punishing end after winning some quality TBR domains, only to be told by CIRA that they are cancelling them and returning them to the TBR pool, due to some errors that occurred that day. It's not that CIRA hasn't cancelled TBR runs for such reasons in the past. I know it happened more than a couple of times.

Although it might be hurting those who genuinely won domains during TBR time and afterwards when it was made publicly available, it might set a precedent for the future IMHO.
 
Eby said:
I have been at the punishing end after winning some quality TBR domains, only to be told by CIRA that they are cancelling them and returning them to the TBR pool, due to some errors that occurred that day. It's not that CIRA hasn't cancelled TBR runs for such reasons in the past. I know it happened more than a couple of times.
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We have all had good TBR wins yanked from us by CIRA cancelling TBR results. The difference is that in those past examples, CIRA themselves took some bit of responsibility for the errors and thus cancelled the entire session. This time it had nothing to do with CIRA or the TBR session itself.
 
rlm said:
We have all had good TBR wins yanked from us by CIRA cancelling TBR results. The difference is that in those past examples, CIRA themselves took some bit of responsibility for the errors and thus cancelled the entire session. This time it had nothing to do with CIRA or the TBR session itself.
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Agree. But can't the Registrar cancel those domains and put them back in the TBR pool to avoid any future issues? Since they were outside the TBR time and would be considered regular registration, can't they implement cancellation at their end? I know that would not be possible if it was a TBR domain and only CIRA can, in that case. Just thoughts to ponder.
 
@rlm There are a couple things to clear up that may give you some insight. First, domain registry pricing during TBR is the same as outside of TBR, premiums are charged by some registrars because they choose to buy additional connections (improving their chances of getting domains), they invest in developing specialized technology (servers and programs) and spend some time analyzing and tuning their systems for best results. In short, it costs a registrar more if they want to be successful in TBR but those costs have nothing to do with CIRA pricing of .CA names in TBR. Any market price for TBR domains are set by registrars and I would presume reflect market competition. TBR participants are able to choose whichever TBR registrar they want but as you have pointed out, some have made more of an investment in the TBR process and are possibly more likely to be successful. I personally think it is reasonable for them to charge a higher fee to offset the higher investments they make.

Second, domains registered in TBR have no addgrace period. Meaning a registrar does not get their fee back if they cancel the registration in the first 5 days as with a normal registration. The addgrace period was/is meant to catch when a customer makes a typo and wants to correct the error. Such errors should not occur in TBR because the "list" per se is known. If there is a typo it's deliberate and someone placing a backorder knows exactly what they are getting.

Third, currently TBR runs for about an hour and officially shuts down at 19:59:59 UTC. As you have observed, once shut down any registrar has the ability to register any domains not captured in TBR that remain available subject to standard registration rules.

Finally, on the subject of an "auction" for a domain that is available outside of TBR? Other than this particular use case, I don't see how that could happen unless a registrar is able to see that future backorders for the same domain are expected. The process is first come first serve for a public customer. If you go to registrar-A and see that a domain is available, you register it, full stop. If that registrar made the registration and then said they were going to wait n days to see if anyone else wanted it before giving it to the first customer and if someone else came along they would run an auction, then I think that would be a violation of our terms because IMO, it would not be "acting in good faith". Any specific case would need to be reviewed by legal but again I really don't see this kind of behaviour as likely outside of TBR.
 
richard.schreier said:
Third, currently TBR runs for about an hour and officially shuts down at 19:59:59 UTC. As you have observed, once shut down any registrar has the ability to register any domains not captured in TBR that remain available subject to standard registration rules.
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Please don't mind me for chiming in here Richard but...

Should registrars even be allowed to order domains that are not already sold to the public. I mean technically if a registrar wanted they could register all left over TBR domains. I have picked up some nice domains in the past by hand registering them when the passed through TBR without getting noticed. So if a registrar hand registers all decent domains that are left over from TBR they could build up quite a collection. In other words become the GoDaddy of .ca

For me it always feels wrong when a registrar is able to hand register domain names for resale. Seems kind of a conflict of interest to me, them having their hands on two slices of the pie.
 
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