FYI .CA "extended" autoRenewPeriod timelines (5.Viewing)

If I knew this, I had forgotten it.

We occassionally talk about a 45 day rule, but in the .CA world it can apparently go up to 120 days.

.CA Domains renewed late... (e.g. in redemption period) go back to AutoRenewPeriod with a new 45 day "clock".

I just refunded a renewal fee for a domain that expired in late October, which was renewed by the client in December, and then transferred away in January. I took CIRA to task as "obviously" the 45 day autorenewperiod from October could not still be in effect, only to have my error pointed out.

I can't give you an exact timeline as it depends on when your registrar deletes your domain and sends it from AutoRenewPeriod into RedemptionPeriod (somewhere between 0 and 45 days). Redemption period lasts 30 days, and I'm talking about domains "redeemed" (effectively just a renewal) in that 30 day interval. These Redemptions reset the domain state to AutoRenewPeriod and start a new 45 day clock ... so you could conceivably be losing a renewal up to 120 (45 + 30 + 45) days past the expiry date!

If you're not dealing with a "friendly" registrar, you (or the buyer) can loose a renewal you paid for. (would suck if you paid extra for a "redemption" that then got cancelled.) You could look foolish if you tell the buyer they'll have an extended expiry date after the transfer and you're wrong.

-Tom

(apologies if I posted this in the wrong place, feel free to move it Frank.)

bmetal said:

I just refunded a renewal fee for a domain that expired in late October, which was renewed by the client in December, and then transferred away in January.

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I'm not sure I completely understand. Why would a registrar refund a renewal that was already paid and processed?

rlm said:

I'm not sure I completely understand. Why would a registrar refund a renewal that was already paid and processed?

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But the renewal wasn't processed, as under the new CIRA system, post-expiry redemption renewals are no longer processed until very late in the expiry game - Tom can probably give you an exact 'number of days' it takes to happen, but that may still differ by registrar.

Initially I thought Tom was talking about me in his comments, as I got an automatic renewal refund today, but I checked and mine expired on Jan 5 and was sold today.

So you can renew an AGP domain, and the registrar will re-activate the nameservers thus re-activating the domain, but that the renewal date is not officially extended the one-year by CIRA until some time later through an automatic process. Basically CIRA is saying, hey, it looks like the registrar didn't delete the domain, therefore the registrar must have received payment from the registrant for the renewal by now, therefore its now OK to actually extend the renewal date and remove AGP status. It seems it would make more sense for the registrar to actually issue a command to CIRA - something like "EXTENSION-AUTHORIZED" indicating that the registrar got their payment, its OK to remove AGP and extend the domain. Similar to how a registrar can issue a DELETE to cut the AGP period short and trigger the RGP immediately. But I supposed the time-delayed-default process of extending the date is more likely to NOT have major mistakes happen (like if a registrar didn't issue the hypothetical "EXTENSION-AUTHORIZED" command on all their domains.

So back to the basic AGP scenario, a domain could be transferred out AFTER renewal fees were paid to the registrar, but BEFORE the registry extends the renewal date and removes the AGP status. In that case, the domain got transferred before receiving the benefit of the renewal date extension, and therefore that is why the registrar refunds the registrant. So that's the scenario @DomainRecap just had, right?

I guess that makes sense and I've never really thought that through. If I've renewed an expired domain, everything seems to work immediately so I just move on and don't put any more thought into it than that.

I wonder what happens when a domain is in RGP and gets renewed/restored? Since it goes back to AGP, I presume the same scenario can happen and lose the renewal-date extension if it gets transferred quickly. But in this case, I think its not fair to the registrar to expect a refund for the renewal - presuming the registrar did not charge an additional redemption fee. The registrant benefits from redeeming the domain so that they can make a sale or transfer the domain out to themselves at another registrar - and so in my mind (and probably in a registrar's mind), you don't get a refund - you paid for and benefitted from the renewal/redemption, therefore you don't deserve a refund. It would seem pretty petty/trivial for a registrant to ask for a refund on a domain they redeemed so they could make a sale. But I guess that's up to the registrar on how to handle it. But I can now see that maybe a registrar is indeed justified to take a small redemption fee in addition to the renewal fee. But I guess that scenario probably doesn't happen all too often.

rlm said:

I'm not sure I completely understand. Why would a registrar refund a renewal that was already paid and processed?

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Because renewals when a domain is in "AutoRenewPeriod" aren't sent to CIRA. CIRA already did their "job" when they auto-renewed the domain.

Basically registrars get automatically billed for a renewal the second a domain expires. They get a refund of that renewal under two circumstances: 1) they delete the domain and change the domain from AutoRenewPeriod to RedemptionPeriod, or 2) the domain is transferred away (the 45 day rule).

The above means that if you renew a domain after it is expired, your registrar just makes a "mental note" to NOT delete the domain ( #1 above ) (which means CIRA doesn't get notified that the domain was renewed ... although most registrars will set clientHold on un-renewed domains and remove it when a domain is renewed.)

I had hoped the above was already understood by .CA domainers.

Just to review, domains which are "deleted" (#1 above) change from AutoRenewPeriod to RedemptionGrace. If they aren't "redeemed" (same as renewed) in 30 days they go into TBR/Pending Delete (no recovery).

The wrinkle I ran into was simply that the redeeming a domain pushes it back into AutoRenewPeriod with a full/reset 45 day clock ). Transferring a domain that was redeemed within 45 days of the redemption cancels the renewal that was part of the redemption, because CIRA considers it a transfer-away during AutoRenewPeriod. (despite this redemption being a very clear explicit renewal.)

If you've forgotten, I personally think the whole auto-renewal system is f*cking insane. It's only benefit is that it allows the registry to shirk responsibility for deleting domains. Its costs are many.

-Tom

(PS and if you renew your domains before they expire, NONE of this applies : )

(PPS I don't know what happens if a registrar keeps deleting and redeeming a domain ... seems like it could stay in auto-renew-period forever... but it shouldn't happen in the normal/real world.)

rlm said:

So you can renew an AGP domain, and the registrar will re-activate the nameservers thus re-activating the domain, but that the renewal date is not officially extended the one-year by CIRA until some time later through an automatic process.

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backwards. it was already renewed. That's 3/4 of my beef with autorenewals. Your domain which expired in 2025, shows a 2026 renewal date in whois (always fun to argue with clients about that) and it's in auto-renew-period and showing clientHold. Yes, (when you pay for the renewal) the registrar will remove clientHold which re-activates DNS ... but that's all the registrar does.

bmetal said:

If you've forgotten, I personally think the whole auto-renewal system is f*cking insane.

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I think we can all agree on this statement.

DomainRecap said:

I think we can all agree on this statement.

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I missed a benefit, it is industry standard. Certainly not a "best practices" standard, but the american .com lawyers wanted it this way, so the rest of the world copied it. Let's hope we can break that pattern.

bmetal said:

Basically registrars get automatically billed for a renewal the second a domain expires. They get a refund of that renewal under two circumstances: 1) they delete the domain and change the domain from AutoRenewPeriod to RedemptionPeriod, or 2) the domain is transferred away (the 45 day rule).

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Ah, so that's the exact timing. If the domain isn't deleted by the registrar (and the status changed from AutoRenewPeriod to RedemptionPeriod) then it's assumed to be renewed and officially updates/processes at that point.

Then if you redeem the domain, it takes another 45 days to elapse in order for CIRA to assume it's been renewed. So if you redeem at the very last day, and then transfer the domain on the very last day before it officially renews, it could conceivably hit 120 days (45 + 30 + 45) of sitting at BM, yet the renewal would ultimately be refunded to you.

That's pretty nuts.

bmetal said:

Because renewals when a domain is in "AutoRenewPeriod" aren't sent to CIRA. CIRA already did their "job" when they auto-renewed the domain.

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Right, of course. I do understand most of the process, but I just don't think about this stuff that often since those nuances rarely apply to me. And I think I've known all that but old age is apparently setting in and I didn't really think of that fact now, that the renewal is already done - the only think missing is the payment from the registant. Once the registrant finally pays, the registrar just removes it from the list of domains needing to be deleted.

So for RGP domains that get redeemed - you say that resets the ARP clock to 45 days? But isn't the ARP clock set by the registrar, anywhere from 0 to 45 days? Or, is it that the ARP clock always defaults to 45 days, but that the registrar has the option to cut it short with the "DELETE" request to CIRA at any time during that 0 to 45 day window? I guess the latter must be the case.

Transferring a domain that was redeemed within 45 days of the redemption cancels the renewal that was part of the redemption, because CIRA considers it a transfer-away during AutoRenewPeriod. (despite this redemption being a very clear explicit renewal.)

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That is interesting that CIRA would cancel the renewal in this case, especially since the registrant would intuitively and fully expect to have gotten that extra year, and then knowing that the transfer would be another transfer+renewal charged by the new registrar.

I guess the redemption fee should almost be considered a completely separate fee from renewal, not a combined fee. This would allow the registrant to choose a redemption with or without renewal. Then if the registrant's intention is to transfer the domain away, they can pay for the redemption and NOT the renewal. If it is not presented to the registrant as two separate services and fees, then the registrant is going to intuitively assume the redemption is one-and-the-same as a renewal - at least that's how I would see it. It definitely seems weird to me that CIRA would refund and not-credit that renewal...

In any case, not all of that renewal/redemption process makes perfect sense, but it seems to err on the side of the registrant, so I guess it is designed that way on purpose.

I like how I do my renewals at WHC

They have such a good search feature I can list .CA .com anything Maple etc but what about keep or drop?

Labels...

FOR SALE
DROP
REVIEW
SYSTEM - used on one of my many site (always renew)
PREMIUM

So because the domains go to grace I don't give the drop label a second look, I have thoroughly reviewed them. The review label gets 30 days of research while the Premium label gets Auto Renew and several years renewals.

I personally don't understand why some domainers have difficulties with renewals when the sorting tools on domain panels are getting so good now.

I can even sort by name server to see what I have listed at Bodis, Godaddy, SAW etc. If I am listed without nameservers I simply create another label to filter by.

Labels were a game changer for me because for the first time I can also label my domains with personas, where before I had to keep them at a different registrar. Now I can add a MapleDots persona as a label and InCognito Domainer as another label etc.

You can read more about labels here: WHC’s New Domain Labels & DNS Editor Upgrades


So as much as I can see bmetals points I just can't understand all this late and redemption stuff. I think in all my years I only had to use redemption twice and both times were when I had an inquiry after deciding to drop. To this day I think one of the inquiries was made by a rival just to get me to spend money on a wasted renewal

PS. I would encourage all REGISTRARS to implement a labeling system, it's an absolute game changer when one manages many domains/personas.