TBR Drop - Feb 14, 2024 (2.Viewing)

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It's really not the same thing as only the registry owns the domain. In terms of rights, you might be talking about the UDRP and not the CDRP, as the Canadian version is extremely slanted towards their corporate overlords and panelists regularly steal back domains like this for their previous owner.

It really comes down to whether Veg.ca wants to go that route and collect a pile of Claude Freeman lookalikes as panelists, or just pay the toll to get it back. Ask $100K for Vegan and I'm pretty sure of the route they'll take. And I'm very sure if it goes that wat you'll hear something similar to "On the balance of probabilities the respondent must have known that the complainant was the prior owner of such a high-profile domain name..."

And you might just win, but I really don't need the extra hassle or stress. If it was another TLD or a cheaper price, but not an expensive .CA with a fixed-game CDRP chock full of corporate-pandering panelists.

It expired, it's a generic term, a proper CDRP lawyer will get you out of that and you tack the expense on to the sale price. Buying and Selling domains is my business, I make it no secret, a dropped domain without a trademark is fair game.

I would certainly test the system with PROPER legal help and I'm confident that it would show I am the owner having gone through the OFFICIAL CIRA process to acquire the domain.

The problem with a lot of the CDRP losses is the domain owner did not have proper legal representation. I would hire @Zak in a heartbeat and be done with it.

All that said veg.ca is a hot mess of domains, the site is called vegTO and they don't even own vegTO.ca instead they run under veg.ca, a so called "NON PROFIT".

Seriously they know nothing about domains and dropping vegan.ca just confirms that. Whoever had the foresight to buy veg.ca and vegan.ca was on the right track but the current branding of the site leaves a lot to be desired.
 
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I totally agree with your statement, but most people will buy Vegan.ca not understanding they may have to do exactly what you outlined. The CDRP is absolutely rigged towards complainants and you need a "Zak" to make sure your domain doesn't get stolen.

Me, I don't need the hassle, even if it's a better than even shot it never happens.
 
So the question is, let’s say that someone wins the domain and puts a vegan site on there. Would the odds increase of possibly losing the domain to the previous owner since it was a previous vegan site? Would this be considered “bad faith”?

It may seem like a silly question but I have seen stranger things happen.
 
So the question is, let’s say that someone wins the domain and puts a vegan site on there. Would the odds increase of possibly losing the domain to the previous owner since it was a previous vegan site? Would this be considered “bad faith”?

I think that would be more a TM issue for the courts. but with the rogue CDRP panelists (who love overstepping their bounds) you really never know.

Now if you bought Vegan.ca and parked it with ads for vegan items, then if the previous owner filed, you'd probably lose the domain in a NY minute.
 
Now if you bought Vegan.ca and parked it with ads for vegan items, then if the previous owner filed, you'd probably lose the domain in a NY minute.

Vegan.ca only has one possible use, even if the previous owner was a vegan blog site and I picked up the name and put up a vegan blog site I would not be afraid. What else can you do with a generic term other than use it for it's meaning. I won't be putting apple pie for sale on the site but might sell vegan meals.

Any argument saying I was using it for something similar to the previous owner is absurd. The fact is the domain was obtained through the RECOGNIZED process set by CIRA themselves. As the new owner I can use the domain name in ANY way I see fit as long as I don't impede on a trademark. At best they have vegTO but even that does not look like it because someone else is using it.

I personally am not concerned and nor should anyone bidding be, and as you can see by the numbers, some of the more experienced domainers bidding are also not concerned.

Would I park Vegan.ca with ads about vegan foods... thats the natural thing to do and as a precaution I would block vegto but that would be about it.
 
I suggest you read all the available CDRPs, as this happens ALL the time.

Don't confuse right or wrong with reality, as once it's outlined that the respondent was displaying ads linked to the complainant's field, you can almost feel the panelists shaking their heads and crossing their arms, then making their decision to award the domain right then and there. Even if you block VegTo ads, the panelists still view you as diverting customers to their competitors.

It just screams "bad faith" to the Canadian panelists. This happens in .COM as well, with many valuable generic domains being lost due to ads, and the only solid way to get around it is to show a registration date predating the complainant. And Canada is 10X worse.

In fact, a board member here lost a generic LLL simply by years ago, once displaying an image of an airplane (the complainant was an airport) and it wasn't even an ad. I can't imagine what would happen if it was an actual ad, he might have gotten life in prison.

The CDRP panelists grasp at absolutely anything to give domains away to their corporate overlords and even with legal representation, displaying ads in the same segment as the complainant is a real death knell in a CDRP. And even worse in this potential case, as the CDRP panelists also really want to return domains to their previous owners.

In one noted case, RLM had to perform some very fancy footwork (that even a lawyer probably wouldn't even think of) to get out of a CDRP on a generic first-name domain that he displayed ads on. It's truly that rare.

So yes, I agree with your previous statement of being safe trying to sell a generic domain like Vegan,ca, but I also think that CDRP precedent clearly demonstrates you are taking a huge risk displaying related ads, even from competitors.
 
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I suggest you read all the available CDRPs, as this happens ALL the time.

Don't confuse right or wrong with reality, as once it's outlined that the respondent was displaying ads linked to the complainant's field, you can almost feel the panelists shaking their heads and crossing their arms, then making their decision to award the domain right then and there. Even if you block VegTo ads, the panelists still view you as diverting customers to their competitors.

It just screams "bad faith" to the Canadian panelists. This happens in .COM as well, with many valuable generic domains being lost due to ads, and the only solid way to get around it is to show a registration date predating the complainant. And Canada is 10X worse.

In fact, a board member here lost a generic LLL simply by years ago, once displaying an image of an airplane (the complainant was an airport) and it wasn't even an ad. I can't imagine what would happen if it was an actual ad, he might have gotten life in prison.

The CDRP panelists grasp at absolutely anything to give domains away to their corporate overlords and even with legal representation, displaying ads in the same segment as the complainant is a real death knell in a CDRP. And even worse in this potential case, as the CDRP panelists also really want to return domains to their previous owners.

In one noted case, RLM had to perform some very fancy footwork (that even a lawyer probably wouldn't even think of) to get out of a CDRP on a generic first-name domain that he displayed ads on. It's truly that rare.

So yes, I agree with your previous statement of being safe trying to sell a generic domain like Vegan,ca, but I also think that CDRP precedent clearly demonstrates you are taking a huge risk displaying related ads, even from competitors.

I don't agree actually, if it is a dictionary term and used to display relevant ads or content, then you are 100% safe, it is a fair and good faith use - regardless if there was a previous site or usage. The only exception would be if there was a really really bad trademark granted - it is very rare, but there are some out there. I would have zero problems buying and using Vegan.ca to display content about being vegan, recipes, where to buy vegan goods, vegan sourced hard-goods, etc, etc. Zero.

Of course you have to know what is a generic word and what is a trademarked term (think Realtor, Kleenex, etc...). And I'm no vegan or know anything about it, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a coined term that was trademarked.

Now, many very generic words can and do have trademarks on goods or services that are NOT relevant to its inherent meaning. For example, if you bought Candy.ca and sold candy or ads related to candy, you're good. But if there was a make-up company called Candy with a trademark and you got caught with ads for make-up, then you start to run risk of being hit with a CDRP, which you may or may not win. Then it comes down to good faith at the time you registered the domain. Obviously if the trademark didn't exist prior to your registration, they can't claim you registered it in bad faith. However, even then a prior registration doesn't give you the right to continue to wilfully infringe on the trademark.

What would be fair is for the Candy Make-up company to inform you of their trademark and your violation (like if you had parked ads and your parking company somehow optimized them for the trademark rather than its inherent use). If you failed to honour their trademark and stop infringing, then they'd have every right to sue you in court for trademark infringement, and would probably file a CDRP as well and show the evidence of your wilful infringement as evidence of bad faith. The way a CDRP is written is that you have to show bad faith at the time of registration, so it is possible that a CDRP would fail anyways, but then again, panellists could possibly take any wilful infringement evidence into account and decide appropriately. And lets face it, the loss in a court case would be every bit as bad or worse (awards for damages) than losing a CDRP. But if you're wilfully infringing and continue to do so after being informed, well then you're just asking for it and probably deserve to lose.

I've received letters from lawyers in the past regarding generic terms and I've simply responded with a "Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We acknowledge your trademark rights and certainly understand and respect your position. Now that we are aware, we've corrected the issue and will give all due care and attention to ensuring that no future infringement will occur." I've never heard back from a single one after that. However, sometimes you never even get that chance when they just file a dispute without ever having tried to contact you.

That CDRP you referred to was probably due to the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. Their marketing department explicitly authorized the use of my domain to redirect to their brand for a commission - but their legal department didn't like it and probably didn't know about what the marketing department did. Although they SHOULD have known, for god sakes, it was obvious due to the fact I was redirecting the traffic TO THEM - not showing competitor ads or anything like that. And its also possible they did know but thought they'd take a stab at it anyways - which wouldn't surprise me as its a reflection of the typical lawyer hubris. Its always a gift when a lawyer goes beyond their own expertise and files a CDRP or UDRP rather than using a specialist. That's why a guy like @Zak has such a high success rate, its a case of Pro vs Amateur, and in any situation, a true Pro will win 99.9% of the time.

Furthermore, in any dispute, the respondant has the advantage - presuming they have the will to proceed and fight it. Think of it like in sports, you've got an offense and a defense. But in a dispute, the offense has to lay out their entire offensive plan for you to analyze and pick apart. If you realize you can't beat it, you fold your hand rather than take the loss. Otherwise you proceed and most likely win. Your record ends up with like 100% wins, zero losses and and unknown number of folds (because those don't get published).
 
I don't agree actually, if it is a dictionary term and used to display relevant ads or content, then you are 100% safe, it is a fair and good faith use - regardless if there was a previous site or usage. The only exception would be if there was a really really bad trademark granted - it is very rare, but there are some out there. I would have zero problems buying and using Vegan.ca to display content about being vegan, recipes, where to buy vegan goods, vegan sourced hard-goods, etc, etc. Zero.

Of course you have to know what is a generic word and what is a trademarked term (think Realtor, Kleenex, etc...). And I'm no vegan or know anything about it, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a coined term that was trademarked.

That is my thought
 
I don't agree actually, if it is a dictionary term and used to display relevant ads or content, then you are 100% safe, it is a fair and good faith use - regardless if there was a previous site or usage.

I agree that is how it should work, I just don't see that's how it always works. I could list a stream of adverse CDRP and UDRP decisions that disagree with your statement above, but I think we both know you're not giving a 100% iron-clad guarantee. Just an opinion given your experience, obvious willingness to fight and risk aversion level.

Personally speaking, having read some pretty whacky decisions on similar "generics with ads on them" I would have no problem buying Vegan.ca and trying to sell it using a generic lander, but no way I'm parking and putting even competitor's ads on there, and inviting 'Claude Freeman and his Band of Rogues' to try and steal it away.

That's just me, and others may be bolder.
 
Wow, I seemed to have stirred up quite the discussion here regarding Vegan.ca! For the record, I don't have a horse (tofurkey?) in this race. I just noticed the domain name in the TBR list -- how could I not, as a vegetarian -- and did some research into who might have let that baby drop. I did backorder the domain at WHC, just to see what would happen, but I did not have high hopes WHC would get it (no offence to Frank M. and team) since I was not chasing the domain hard. If I'd have gotten the domain, I would have offered it back to the VegTO folks, as a gesture of goodwill. I don't know anyone there, but I am familiar with the good work they do. If they declined that offer, I would have listed the domain for sale or found someone else (maybe a vegan restaurant I like) to donate it to.

I would be surprised if the VegTO folks were to take legal action against the new owner, and I would be further suprised if they were to win that legal claim. I don't think they are entitled to a generic domain they let expire. You snooze, you lose...

Best wishes to the new owner of Vegan.ca.
 
I don't think they are entitled to a generic domain they let expire. You snooze, you lose...

I agree

The CIRA rules are clear, if someone buys a domain through TBR all the safety systems have been exhausted and the new owner is free to use the domain as if it were a new registration, because technically it is.

Now for the more inexperienced domainers that means all of the rules set forth by CIRA for NEW registrations apply, same as a hand reg.
 
FYI
Might be lots of mean vegan lawyers out there!
Danto

BUSINESS CONTACT​

Kathleen Farley

Executive Director
Email: kfarley@veg.ca

Quitting meat

Who owned vegan.ca in the past? (4 records)​

27 OCT 2016
Name: Toronto Vegetarian Association Ltd.
Nameservers: sp1.domainpeople.com, sp2.domainpeople.com
Status: registered

31 JAN 2020
Name: Toronto Vegetarian Association Ltd.
Email: kfarley@veg.ca (2 domains)
Country: Canada (38.3 million domains from Canada for $1,250)
Nameservers: sp1.domainpeople.com, sp2.domainpeople.com
Status: clientTransferProhibited UPDATED

7 DEC 2023
Name: Toronto Vegetarian Association Ltd.
Email: kfarley@veg.ca (2 domains)
Country: Canada (38.3 million domains from Canada for $1,250)
Nameservers: ns1.domainpeople.com, ns2.domainpeople.com UPDATED
Status: autoRenewPeriod, clientTransferProhibited UPDATED

16 FEB 2024
Name: REDACTED FOR PRIVACY (361 million domains) UPDATED
Company: REDACTED FOR PRIVACY (127 million domains)
Country: REDACTED FOR PRIVACY
Nameservers: ns1.catchdrop.com, ns8.catchdrop.com UPDATED
Status: serverTransferProhibited UPDATED
 
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It will be impossible to get vegan.ca on the cheap at this point
 
$6,600 for vegan.ca is retail pricing? I can’t recall the last name I sold for under 10k and they were much worse than this…but I CAN remember the amount of names I paid more than 10K in TBR.

Those kind of statements make people think they need to sell their domains for nothing or that they are worth practically nothing.
 
$6,600 for vegan.ca is retail pricing? I can’t recall the last name I sold for under 10k and they were much worse than this…but I CAN remember the amount of names I paid more than 10K in TBR.

Those kind of statements make people think they need to sell their domains for nothing or that they are worth practically nothing.

He did say "in his humble opinion"

That said, there are the domainers that think short term and then there are the ones who think long term.

Long term (maybe not that long) for Vegan.ca even at 10k it would be an asset to have in ones catalog. Unfortunately the number of .ca investors willing to tie up that much are a small group. I'm thinking about it because 5 years from now anything under 20k for a domain like that will seem like a bargain.

PS. When I bought red.ca I heard over and over again that I paid too much. Today it looks like chicken feed for a domain like that.
 
He did say "in his humble opinion"

That said, there are the domainers that think short term and then there are the ones who think long term.

Long term (maybe not that long) for Vegan.ca even at 10k it would be an asset to have in ones catalog. Unfortunately the number of .ca investors willing to tie up that much are a small group. I'm thinking about it because 5 years from now anything under 20k for a domain like that will seem like a bargain.

PS. When I bought red.ca I heard over and over again that I paid too much. Today it looks like chicken feed for a domain like that.

We all love to add our two cents and add IMHO.

Let’s face it….if we are buying domains and not profiting AT LEAST 10% profit per year you’re losing in this business. If I bought this domain today for 10K and held it for 10 years. Anything under 100K would be a loss for me.

So for many of us who have domains that we have owned for 20 years you can imagine what our asking price may be. Why buy domains if I can invest in the stock market that is averaging 9% per year over the last 20 years or 15% per year over the last 5 years?

If you can’t afford to hold domains you shouldn’t be buying them. Like you said; there are a select few that are able to throw that kind of money on domains these days because there are many alternatives these days that are performing way better.

That’s one of the reasons I have clawed back in auctions because I’m looking at the bigger picture. But to say vegan.ca is at or near retail pricing. I have to strongly disagree there.
 
That’s one of the reasons I have clawed back in auctions because I’m looking at the bigger picture. But to say vegan.ca is at or near retail pricing. I have to strongly disagree there.

In my opinion if you can't get 75k out of a qualified end user for that domain then you're not seeing the big picture.
 
PS. When I bought red.ca I heard over and over again that I paid too much. Today it looks like chicken feed for a domain like that.

Sure, but remember that no asset consistently appreciates year-over-year forever and no one can forecast the future.

This 10-20% a year on premium domains is great, until it isn't.
 

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